Saturday, January 16, 2010

Oct.11, 2009 Topic "What is Roleplay in SL?"

On October 11, 2009, the Role Play Nexus and the SL Role-playing Game Developers group presented a talk entitled, "What is Role Play in Second Life?", by Cursa Charisma, co-founder of the Nexus. The talk was followed by a discussion on the day's topic and related to wider elements of creating, developing, and managing role-playing games and communities in SL.

Afalalota Cummings
Allen Kerensky
Baroun Tardis
Cody Winterwolf
Cursa Charisma
Emberzzz Mendelsohn
Falcon53 Neox
Joelle Tardis
Kaliah Daxter
Lucien Velinov
Medea Warwillow
MistressBrazen Bondar
Mgzx Dartmouth (ejected for griefing)
Sentry Swashbuckler
Unlikely Messenger

[18:11] Medea Warwillow: Welcome, everyone, to the Role Play Nexus.
[18:11] Baroun Tardis: Very good crowd - all kindsa folks I'm glad to see!
[18:11] Medea Warwillow: This morning, we are privileged to receive a talk entitled, "What is Roleplay is Second Life?" by Cursa Charisma, our very own Roleplay Nexus owner.
[18:11] Medea Warwillow: This event is sponsored by the SL Role-playing Game Developers group, and the Nexus.
[18:12] Medea Warwillow: I, Medea Warwillow and our speaker, Cursa Charisma represent the Nexus this morning, with Baroun Tardis representing the SL Role-playing Game Developers group.
[18:12] Medea Warwillow: For those of you new to the Nexus, we provide a venue for sharing ideas, stories, questions, advice, and experiences related to role-playing in Second Life.
[18:12] Medea Warwillow: We recommend you set your viewer to Midnight, and we have soundtrack music playing on the audio stream.
[18:13] Medea Warwillow: Please keep in mind that this is a public discussion, and a chat log will be preserved and made available here.
[18:13] Medea Warwillow: Cursa's talk and related questions are planned to run approximately half an hour. The following half-hour will be devoted to discussion of topics related to the many aspects of what is considered role-playing in Second Life.
[18:13] Medea Warwillow: We will also be welcoming discussion of ideas and offers for future talk and events.
[18:14] Medea Warwillow: Last week the Nexus was host to a talk given by Baroun Tardis entitle "Building Adventures". Baroun is the creator of the HTCS roleplay system, and a copy of his talk can be found by touching the advertisement poster, behind the guy with the iguana.
[18:14] Medea Warwillow: *entitled
[18:14] Cursa Charisma grins
[18:14] Medea Warwillow throws Cursa the Mic
[18:14] Cursa Charisma nods
[18:14] Medea Warwillow: Take it away.
[18:15] Cursa Charisma: Thank you. Tonight's topic is how role-playing is defined in Second Life.
[18:15] Cursa Charisma: Offline, the same words are sometimes commonly used to mean very different things by different people and groups.
[18:15] Cursa Charisma: Are people, for example, who identify with the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea", the "Democratic Party" of the United States, and traditional New England "town hall democracy" talking about the same thing?
[18:15] Baroun Tardis snorts
[18:15] Joelle Tardis grins
[18:15] Cursa Charisma: Similarly, the term "role-playing game" has been applied to a variety of very different activities over the past few decades. I have myself participated in several of them since before some of us here today were born.
[18:16] Cursa Charisma grins
[18:16] Cursa Charisma: Among the residents of Second Life who would call what they do "role-playing", there are several common types of activity that are quite different. Mistakenly expecting others to be playing the same type of game can and does cause misunderstanding and conflict.
[18:17] Cursa Charisma: My talk tonight will identify the common types of activity called role-playing by those who practice them, and begin a discussion of how best to encourage and assist players in recognizing the definitions and assumptions of groups they may want to play in, and to choose accordingly.
[18:17] Cursa Charisma: The terms I will use to identify the four common types of "role-playing" in Second Life are cosplay, combat, capture, and collaborative fiction. Of course, any given group may be using more than one of these types, but most players see just one of them as "real" role-playing. Indeed, many if not most residents of Second Life identify SL itself as a game, of one of these types.
[18:18] Cursa Charisma: Cosplay, a term coined in Japan from the English words, "costume play", consists of dressing as a fictional character, then gathering with others doing the same thing. They then talk about their characters and socialize as modern everyday people, much as stamp collectors or goldfish fanciers would.
[18:19] Baroun Tardis: Q: Cosplay , they're not "being" the person they're dresssed as?
[18:20] Cursa Charisma: "Being" within the definition given here
[18:20] Cursa Charisma: Talking as a player *about* a character
[18:20] Baroun Tardis: ok
[18:20] Cursa Charisma nods
[18:20] Cursa Charisma: Combat refers here to first-person-shooter style play. Using SL's combat system, or a customized combat meter, players arrange to meet and fight it out, with some greater or lesser degree of scenery and scenario involved, individually or in teams. The practices, attitudes, and personalities are essentially the same as would be found on, for example, XBox Live or Call of Duty.
[18:21] Joelle Tardis cringes
[18:21] Cursa Charisma grins
[18:21] Cursa Charisma: Capture play, commonly under the term "Gorean", after the Gor novels by John Norman, is the largest single type of activity in Second Life that is called "role-play" by those involved. It involves the simulated enslavement of one player's character by another. A random glance through the profiles of any number of avatars in SL will quickly turn up references to being "collared by" Master or Mistress So-and-So, and listing what "this slave" is or is not "allowed" to do.
[18:21] Joelle Tardis: Much Broader than just that Cursa
[18:22] Cursa Charisma: I'm here identifying a commonly perceived type
[18:22] Cursa Charisma: Not excluding others
[18:22] Joelle Tardis nods
[18:22] Cursa Charisma: As the predominant form, as well as one that is seen from outside as being mainly a type of play that is distasteful or abhorrent in most places connected to the internet, capture play is the object of resentment by many SL residents who define role-playing differently.
[18:23] Cursa Charisma: Collaborative fiction, or improvisational theater, is how I describe activities that tend to be free-form, text-based, and concerned with story-style plot and character development more than player interactions with other players. While this type of "role-playing" can be found without any element of the other types, it typically has some degree of overlap with them.
[18:23] Cursa Charisma: Unless someone violates the Second Life Terms of Service, everyone involved in any of these types of activity is a consenting adult. Whatever our own personal preferences or opinions, it is neither useful nor appropriate to claim that any of them is more or less legitimate.
[18:24] Joelle Tardis nods in agreement
[18:24] Unlikely Messenger agrees
[18:24] Cursa Charisma grins
[18:24] Cursa Charisma: That said, each of us does have personal preferences and opinions. If our own chosen form of role-playing is perceived as being violated by someone forcing one of the others on us, resentment and grievance are natural reactions.
[18:24] MistressBrazen Bondar nods
[18:24] Cursa Charisma: It is not surprising, therefore, that this type of situation leads to disruption and conflict among players, as opposed to characters. I would like to use three examples I have witnessed personally to illustrate this point.
[18:25] Allen Kerensky: ... Mooz ...
[18:25] Cursa Charisma: For several months earlier this year, I joined a group attempting highly authentic role-playing in ancient Egypt. One of the motivations of the founders of the group was the fact that a previous historical group, which had always featured combat and collaborative fiction role-playing, became dominated - no pun intended - by capture play and other manifestations seen as Gorean, such as certain greetings, costumes, and so on.
[18:25] Joelle Tardis looks at Allen and sighs
[18:26] Cursa Charisma: Consequently, this new Egypt was explicit and adamant that newcomers "leave their Gor at the door". New players were expected to complete orientation lectures, in which "Gorean" things such as "silks", greetings, and of course capture play, were explicitly listed as forbidden.
[18:26] MistressBrazen Bondar: ((brb))
[18:26] Cursa Charisma: ((hb))
[18:26] Cursa Charisma: A person joined who described herself as an experienced role-player, and took the challenging role of a Phoenician in Thebes, allowed in the city on sufferance and under guard. She then declared that her character had slipped her guards and was sneaking around loose. A player reported this to the Magistrate, who then IMed available players, including myself, to portray Medjay (police) and play out - in collaborative fiction, text format - the apprehension of the fugitive.
[18:27] Cursa Charisma: It being an impromptu situation, I simply portrayed a stereotypical "Officer Plod", with dialogue such as, "Alright, it's down to the station with you," and "Move along, nothing to see here."
[18:27] Cursa Charisma grins
[18:27] Joelle Tardis smiles
[18:28] Cursa Charisma: The fugitive then proceeded to declare that she had broken away and was fleeing toward the city gates. It was well-established that there were guards there, so I did not move my avatar, and simply indicated by IM that she could not escape that way.
[18:28] Cursa Charisma: In IM, she replied that I was expected to pursue and capture her. At the time, I did not understand that this meant anything other than portrayal of police apprehending a fugitive.
[18:28] Cursa Charisma shakes his head
[18:28] Allen Kerensky: (( the classic kids cowboys and indians move: I shot you! No you dinnt! ))
[18:28] Cursa Charisma: The Magistrate's administrative authority was then asserted and the player in question moved her avatar into a holding cell in the Medjay building. She then proceeded to write abusive dialogue by my character toward hers, and even that mine had struck hers. She also wrote that her character was bound, and even gagged, despite that making no sense, the prisoner already being in a holding cell.
[18:29] Joelle Tardis grins and thinks od the term god-mod
[18:29] Cursa Charisma nods
[18:29] Allen Kerensky: nods
[18:29] Cursa Charisma: It was at this point, with IMs from this player informing me that I wasn't playing right and ought to be initiating sexual activity, that I realized that, without my consent or even knowledge, I had been involved in capture play.
[18:30] Cursa Charisma: I momentarily felt angry, resentful, and even violated. Now, of course, I find the experience quite amusing.
[18:30] Cursa Charisma grins
[18:30] Allen Kerensky: (( Officer Plod is happily married and not interested in criminal scum ))
[18:30] Baroun Tardis whispers, "sexual activity without consent- she was in a way raping cursa and upset he wasn't cooperating by 'raping' her.... whee!"
[18:30] Cursa Charisma nods
[18:30] Cursa Charisma: The player of the Magistrate having administrative authority in the situation, I reported what had happened, and it was explained to the player that, as far as that role-playing group was concerned, she was playing "Gor". She said that she had not thought so, that, essentially, the term "role-playing" inherently meant capture play.
[18:31] Allen Kerensky: (( not role playing where the role fits the setting ))
[18:31] Joelle Tardis shakes her head
[18:31] Cursa Charisma: It was explained that she had a choice: retcon the entire escape from the guards, or allow her character to be thrown to the crocodiles. She said she would choose the latter course and make a new character, but was not seen in the Egypt role-playing group again.
[18:31] Baroun Tardis gave you Nexus attendees.
[18:31] Cursa Charisma: My second example occured just a couple of days ago in a Firefly Role-Play location where all role-play that I have seen has been of the collaborative fiction variety, with a strong emphasis on text-based character development story lines.
[18:32] Cody Winterwolf: Got to go sorry all.
[18:32] Cursa Charisma: You can get the transcript later, Cody
[18:32] Cursa Charisma grins
[18:32] Cursa Charisma: A player had started to frequent the bar and dance club where most social activity took place. His profile showed that his main locale was a popular Star Wars role-play venue where combat play and collaborative fiction play are both common.
[18:33] Cursa Charisma: (Cody was present for this example anyway, hehe)
[18:33] Cursa Charisma: The player's character was a mercenary, and his appearance and dialogue reflected a focus on combat and conflict. This led to dialogue with other characters that included braggadocio and threats. On the occasion in question, however, the distinction between "in character" open text chat and "out of character" player interaction escaped him, and he became visibly agitated when it was made clear to him that his character would not be welcome if he persisted in threatening exchanges with another character, a young girl suffering from post-traumatic stress.
[18:33] Cursa Charisma: The player then left the bar and drove around in front in what appeared to be a World War II tank, not exactly the best fit for the Firefly setting. He was followed outside by a regular Firefly player, who then attacked him using combat meters. This was out of sight of most of the players inside the bar.
[18:34] Cursa Charisma: (Cursa, of course, sees all)
[18:34] Cursa Charisma grins
[18:34] Cursa Charisma: Some time after this, those inside the bar became aware of a fracas outside. A number of avatars whose profiles showed the same Star Wars venue in their group lists were engaged in an open chat argument and intermittent metered combat attack with the Firefly player who had attacked the avatar in the tank earlier. These outside avatars declared that they were there on behalf of that avatar, their leader, a figure worthy of respect, and otherwise squabbled with the one local player in a manner reminiscent of a schoolyard.
[18:34] Sentry Swashbuckler smiles
[18:35] Cursa Charisma: Two local administrators required several minutes of firm words to end the squabbling and intermittent attacks. The substance of the complaints going back and forth was that this or that attack had been unfair or illegal. In other words, those players were engaging in combat play as a consequence of another player having confused the fact that the venue in question was a strongly collaborative fiction environment.
[18:35] Unlikely Messenger: Oiy!
[18:35] Cursa Charisma nods to Unlikely, than toward Sentry
[18:36] Cursa Charisma: In both these examples, we see that player (as opposed to character) conflict and dissatisfaction flows readily from failure to recognize different definitions of role-play.
[18:36] Allen Kerensky: ... or just being saddled with jerks in SL ...
[18:36] Cursa Charisma grins
[18:36] Joelle Tardis grins at Allen
[18:36] Baroun Tardis: good point - player error, not game or syustem fail
[18:36] Cursa Charisma: To paraphrase a scripture, the jerks are always with you
[18:36] Baroun Tardis: or even char error
[18:36] Cursa Charisma: In the first, we have a player who believed that "role-play" means capture play. In the second, we have one who believes that "role-play" means combat play. In both cases, some collaborative fiction is seen as a peripheral support, or "scaffolding" for the main type of play.
[18:36] Allen Kerensky: its always human error - HAL9000
[18:37] Sentry Swashbuckler: There's more we found out about this situation (I was one of the admins), but that can wait for later.
[18:37] Cursa Charisma nods
[18:37] Cursa Charisma: Both of these beliefs are perfectly legitimate in venues and groups that share the same definitions. The conflicts arose because, in the first case, the venue was strictly collaborative fiction and capture play was explicitly forbidden, and in the second, the orientation was precisely the reverse of the player's - collaborative fiction, with combat play as a peripheral support.
[18:37] Cursa Charisma: OOps, sorry
[18:37] Cursa Charisma: Both of these beliefs are perfectly legitimate in venues and groups that share the same definitions. The conflicts arose because, in the first case, the venue was strictly collaborative fiction and capture play was explicitly forbidden, and in the second, the orientation was precisely the reverse of the player's - collaborative fiction, with combat play as a peripheral support.
[18:38] Cursa Charisma: In my third example, the owner of a far future space role-playing sim has stated that any type of role-playing is welcome to be conducted there. The stated concept is that if one encounters actions or communications one does not wish to interact with, one may and should ignore them.
[18:38] Lucien Velinov: Actually...I did write something regarding roleplay for distribution in a sim that I help manage.
[18:38] Allen Kerensky: (( so it comes down to the age old - know your GM, know your players, know your setting... just like a D&D table in the 1970's))
[18:38] Cursa Charisma nods
[18:38] Cursa Charisma: But there are special challenges associated with the medium of SL
[18:39] Cursa Charisma: This venue had for some time been the home of a core of highly motivated players and administrators, and had formerly been a strictly regulated role-playing environment focused on collaborative fiction play, with combat being secondary.
[18:39] Lucien Velinov: If anyone is interested...not a long read, but I think it addresses the point.
[18:39] Allen Kerensky: (( please send to me))
[18:39] Falcon53 Neox: yes
[18:39] Cursa Charisma: During the discussion, Lucien, I will be very interested to hear more about it
[18:39] Cursa Charisma grins
[18:39] Cursa Charisma: The main public area of the sim became the home of a new player, whose costume and behavior did not fit well with the established setting. She regularly broke in on the role-play of others with unrelated and often unintelligible chat. She recruited other players to the sim, and soon these began to crowd out not only the veteran players and administrators, but others who came seeking an immersive experience based on the stated setting.
[18:40] Allen Kerensky: (( gee this sounds familiar))
[18:40] Cursa Charisma: In conversations and meetings, this player expressed a consistent view that role-playing consisted in gathering people in the sim with any sort of costume or vehicle that was "space" in theme. In other words, she saw role-play as cosplay.
[18:40] Cursa Charisma nods to Allen
[18:41] Cursa Charisma: To sum up, there are four main types of play that are called "role-play" by those who participate in them in Second Life. Many or most players believe that their chosen primary one is the sole legitimate one, or even the only one that exists. This leads to confusion and conflict when they encounter other players, groups, and venues where different types of play have primacy.
[18:41] Allen Kerensky: and she would be right with the sim owner saying RP was whatever you wanted it to be and otherwise not being involved
[18:41] Cursa Charisma nods
[18:41] Cursa Charisma: What then are we to draw from this observation? Clearly, posting rules and lecturing new players are ineffective. In the examples we have examined, even the most explicit, clear, and repeated statements and prohibitions failed to avoid serious distress and unhappy outcomes resulting from failure to understand different definitions of role-playing in Second Life.
[18:42] Allen Kerensky: who reads all the rules anyway?
[18:42] Cursa Charisma nods
[18:42] Cursa Charisma: Exactly
[18:42] Cursa Charisma: As I conclude my talk, therefore, I would like to ask all of you to join me in discussing what methods and means can be more effective in making Second Life residents aware of the different types of role-playing that exist, and in choosing the groups and venues where their own preferred ones are welcomed.
[18:42] Allen Kerensky: microsoft trained everyone to just click OK and move on
[18:42] Cursa Charisma grins
[18:42] Cursa Charisma: That concludes my prepared talk
[18:42] Cursa Charisma: Thank you all very much
[18:42] Allen Kerensky: good talk!
[18:42] Cursa Charisma: *salutes*
[18:42] Unlikely Messenger: Thank you sir
[18:43] Falcon53 Neox: very good
[18:43] Lucien Velinov: I think it is neccessary to get at the core of it.
[18:43] MistressBrazen Bondar: That was great Cursa and very helpful to me since Im relatively new to rp
[18:43] Allen Kerensky: you can throw in type of RP #5: Griefing =)
[18:43] Allen smiles.
[18:43] Cursa Charisma: Have to get Mooz in there, Allen?
[18:43] Allen Kerensky: no
[18:43] Lucien Velinov: Which is what I attempt to do with what I wrote.
[18:43] Cursa Charisma: Hey, *I'm* the one she shot /me winks
[18:43] Lucien Velinov gave you RP Style.
[18:43] Baroun Tardis: very good talk indeed
[18:43] Allen Kerensky: griefers do it for the lulz, but it does have RP-like aspects
[18:43] Cursa Charisma: OK, Dea appears to be Busy
[18:43] Joelle Tardis: But to most of us who were involved in that Allen Is Right It did Feel Like Griefing
[18:43] Allen Kerensky: its own community, jargon, roles, and more
[18:44] Allen Kerensky: i was speaking more of people who come to SL intent on griefing
[18:44] Allen Kerensky: but yeah, she was a jerk
[18:44] Lucien Velinov: Essentially, the 'for methods' you spoke of aren't different definitions of roleplay. They're all roleplay...Just a difference of -what- is being roleplayed.
[18:44] MistressBrazen Bondar: but th eproblem is when you think you have all of that ALlen and the owner comes in and upsets the basket
[18:44] Joelle Tardis: and From My Xp most Rp Venues in SL contain all 4 types of RP or at the least 3
[18:44] Lucien Velinov: four*
[18:44] Cursa Charisma: My talk was about perceived definitions of role play by those who do it
[18:45] Unlikely Messenger: I think the key to keeping an RP situation is to have just enough constraints on the the characters and situation, too much and it is a scripted play, too little constraits and all hell breaks lose
[18:45] Cursa Charisma: We here all know that role play is a broad spectrum involving all of the ones I mentioned and more
[18:45] Allen Kerensky: there is a very good book by Robin Laws published by Steve Jackson Games which talks a LOT about identifying players and designing games to play to their types and strnegths
[18:45] Baroun Tardis: Yeah, there's going to be , generally, a mix of the 4, with varying amount
[18:45] Baroun Tardis: In SL< Cosplay is simple
[18:45] MistressBrazen Bondar: yes but how do you get people to respect the constarints?
[18:45] Allen Kerensky: SL *is* Cosplay in a sense
[18:45] MistressBrazen Bondar: *constraints
[18:45] Baroun Tardis: yeah, a given
[18:46] Allen Kerensky: @Brazen you can't
[18:46] Allen Kerensky: @Brazen you just have to mute and exclude
[18:46] Baroun Tardis: Making people play by the other sim rules - Explain, Educate, Eject
[18:46] Joelle Tardis: You have to have a basic set of rules and enforce them
[18:46] Unlikely Messenger: The constraints have to be justifiable, and they must fit the mood and gnere that is being presented
[18:46] Allen Kerensky: well, setting expectations too
[18:46] Cursa Charisma nods
[18:46] Baroun Tardis: Ah, Educate, Explain, Enforce, Eject
[18:46] Emberzzz Mendelsohn: :0
[18:46] MistressBrazen Bondar: I support that...
[18:46] Allen Kerensky: I land in a Dune sim - I expect Dune
[18:46] Allen Kerensky: I land in Star Wars - I expect Sith and Mandos
[18:46] Baroun Tardis: Explain Expectations, Educate , Enforce, Eject
[18:46] MistressBrazen Bondar: exactly...not Barbie in SPace
[18:47] Cursa Charisma: Unlikely has a good point - rules will be understood and followed better if they are part of the immersive experience
[18:47] Allen Kerensky: I land in Firefly, I expect Mal and Co.
[18:47] Unlikely Messenger: Not that I am suggesting that is easy mind you
[18:47] Joelle Tardis nods
[18:47] Cursa Charisma nods
[18:47] Lucien Velinov: Not only that, but the peers they are playing with make a difference in their influece.
[18:47] MistressBrazen Bondar: but thats what I am do you make them part o fthe immersive experience
[18:47] Cursa Charisma: Exactly, Lucien!
[18:47] Joelle Tardis: looks around for a man named Jane
[18:47] Allen Kerensky: but no mater the venue, there are always people who won't fit
[18:47] Cursa Charisma: Example is more potent than explanation
[18:47] Lucien Velinov: Right.
[18:47] Cursa Charisma: Always better to show than to tell
[18:47] Baroun Tardis: good point
[18:47] Unlikely Messenger: It takes a good amount of forethought and a ton of considering the players expectations of the game
[18:48] Cursa Charisma nods
[18:48] MistressBrazen Bondar: well...that didnt work for us at SR did it?
[18:48] Allen Kerensky: probation periods and as much technical enforcement by groups and roles as possible
[18:48] Cursa Charisma: Probation periods are one method, yes
[18:48] Baroun Tardis: And having events where you bring new people in - a special RP session that's the intro and lead in for their persona
[18:48] Cursa Charisma: There is also "initiation"
[18:48] Allen Kerensky: and reputation points as a system
[18:48] Baroun Tardis: which both introduces them to the game, and introduces the community to them
[18:48] Cursa Charisma: Similar to "leveling"
[18:48] Cursa Charisma: Yes
[18:48] Allen Kerensky: Star Trek folks have academies
[18:48] Lucien Velinov: I think you're trying too hard with it.
[18:48] MistressBrazen Bondar smiles at "initiation"
[18:48] Unlikely Messenger: In some RP the players want to feel as though they are part of somthing, sometimes they want a powertrip, other times it is more about mystery and actully not knowing everything
[18:48] Allen Kerensky: you want to be a bridge bunny in Star Trek - go to school
[18:49] Lucien Velinov: And for the record, I despise the leveling concept is many meters.
[18:49] Allen Kerensky: walk ons are just ignored and sent to class
[18:49] Joelle Tardis: Well My Xp is setting out the rukes in a straight forward simple way upon entry to the Sim and enforcing them works fine
[18:49] Baroun Tardis agrees with Lucien
[18:49] Cursa Charisma: Lucien has a point - those places that have pre-interviews and academies and such drive away many good players
[18:49] Cursa Charisma: I would not join one
[18:49] Allen Kerensky: true
[18:49] Allen Kerensky: but THEY get the roleplay THEY want
[18:49] Allen Kerensky: by filtering out those who don't fit
[18:49] Lucien Velinov: They don't get the new blood they need to expand
[18:49] Allen Kerensky: its a balance
[18:49] Cursa Charisma: As Unlikely is focusing on, there are many people who want to be able to RP casually
[18:49] Lucien Velinov: Those are usually small, semi-closed communities.
[18:49] Allen Kerensky: and for casual roleplay, you have to be relaxed when idiots show up
[18:50] Cursa Charisma: Actually, Allen, I wonder if they do get the RP they want
[18:50] Baroun Tardis: With very tight, accurate RP
[18:50] Cursa Charisma: Yes
[18:50] Baroun Tardis: but for casual playes - how ?
[18:50] Allen Kerensky: open mic night
[18:50] Baroun Tardis: I thnkt here's a problem there - you don't get in-depth setting with just casual, surface level folks
[18:50] Lucien Velinov: If you're into roleplaying with the same small group of people forever and a day, shoot.
[18:50] Lucien Velinov: I could only take it for so long, heh.
[18:50] Cursa Charisma: Actually, Baroun, you showed and told us that you can do that
[18:50] Allen Kerensky: @Lucien you can if the setting is big enough, like Forgotten Realms in D&D
[18:50] Unlikely Messenger: The casual player has to understand that his role is "barfly" or waiter, not Wyatt Erp, or Nero
[18:50] Joelle Tardis: Well we get lots of Visitors and Casual players and our rules are in your face and enforced
[18:51] Cursa Charisma: If you have an interactive immersive setting, people will instantly fall into the appropriate attitudes
[18:51] Allen Kerensky: in Dune, many new folks wanted to be Paul Atreides
[18:51] MistressBrazen Bondar: lol@unlikely...true so true
[18:51] Allen Kerensky: clear roles including roles for new players
[18:51] Baroun Tardis: Well, yes, that's what I was saying about entry events
[18:51] Lucien Velinov: Allen, if that is the case, you'll be hard pressed to encourage new blood if they have that inconvenient of a block to their play.
[18:51] Kaliah Daxter: sorry if I am late
[18:51] Kaliah Daxter: it was super hard to find this palce
[18:51] Cursa Charisma: Welcome!
[18:51] Baroun Tardis: Glad you made it
[18:51] Allen Kerensky: @Lucien not disagreeing with you, just pointing out that some people have structured setting that work for them
[18:51] Mxgz Dartmouth: very hard to find this place!
[18:51] Kaliah Daxter: thank you
[18:51] Baroun Tardis: welcome to the insanity
[18:51] Cursa Charisma grins
[18:51] Cursa Charisma: Creative insanity, please
[18:52] Mxgz Dartmouth: Does anyone know what soundtrack is playing on the stream???
[18:52] Kaliah Daxter: yeah I agree, I was looking at the map
[18:52] Allen Kerensky: not every table is for every player, as they say at the conventions
[18:52] Lucien Velinov: That being the case, you're only going to pull in people that are dead-set on playing there regardless. Not calling it better or worse, just saying.
[18:52] Cursa Charisma: Sorry, Mxgz
[18:52] Kaliah Daxter: it sounds like twilight mx
[18:53] Allen Kerensky: how to have a good RP in SL - design events to cater to all 4 and give each their moment to shine, but make sure that each type also depends on the other 3 types to complete some tasks
[18:53] Lucien Velinov: But to steer us back to the topic of enforcing proper conduct...I believe that a short, direct set of rules and proper pressure (example) from peers can properly guide new players.
[18:53] Allen Kerensky: so, give Cosplayers their time, and chatters their time
[18:53] Unlikely Messenger: If I may be allowed to make a shameless plug for my group? I would like to invite all you you creative crazy people to join it
[18:53] Cursa Charisma: Yes, organizers need to have very clear concepts and plan with the realities of the medium and the "market" in mind
[18:53] Kaliah Daxter: do you guys RP in real life?
[18:53] Mxgz Dartmouth: I do
[18:53] Kaliah Daxter: I do, all the time. dungeons and dragons
[18:53] Kaliah Daxter: where can I sit
[18:53] Cursa Charisma: I have /me grins
[18:53] Lucien Velinov: Allen, I think the better idea would be to break that kind of preset mold to begin with.
[18:53] Allen Kerensky: not sure what you mean unless you mean tabletop or LARP
[18:54] Falcon53 Neox: I have
[18:54] Cursa Charisma: Sit anywhere you like, Kaliah
[18:54] Cursa Charisma grins
[18:54] Mxgz Dartmouth: Larping is such a blast
[18:54] Kaliah Daxter: thank you cursa
[18:54] Allen Kerensky: @Lucien you can't break the mold the players bring to the tables themselves - when you are allowing walk ons the new people will keep bringing them
[18:54] Lucien Velinov: Not a fan of Larping myself. I've done it, though to a point.
[18:54] Kaliah Daxter: I love to Larp
[18:55] Unlikely Messenger: I did a LARP at a convention a few months ago and had a blast
[18:55] Allen Kerensky: @Lucien either you incorporate that reality into the design, or you build lots of structure and rules to "educate" those willing to adapt to something they aren't
[18:55] Allen Kerensky: how many of you see RPers who play the same way, same charcter, regardless of setting or number of times killed, or class/role changes?
[18:55] Lucien Velinov: It's not that complex.
[18:55] Baroun Tardis: And you can 'cheat' by making the education palatable by rolling it into the play
[18:55] Cursa Charisma: I was at Frank's new Elite club last night - they have a public area, and then a private area that can only be entered by group members
[18:55] Allen Kerensky: if you are going to let that player at your table, you know that's coming
[18:55] Kaliah Daxter: I RP the same scenerios in RL
[18:55] Lucien Velinov: Those that don't learn don't learn; those that do will conform.
[18:55] Baroun Tardis: I like the teamwork comment above - mix the types, and make sure there's something for eveyone
[18:56] Kaliah Daxter: I want to youtube my adventures
[18:56] Kaliah Daxter: I love to dress up in medevil outfits
[18:56] Cursa Charisma: Agreed, Baroun
[18:56] Allen Kerensky: @Lucien and you end up RPing only with those you agree with and have fun with
[18:56] Lucien Velinov: I think you're missing out if you define the scope of roleplay into 4 'types'
[18:56] Baroun Tardis: @Kaliah -> CosPlay
[18:56] Kaliah Daxter: anyone live in the LA area and want to join me?
[18:56] Cursa Charisma: And that sounds excellent, Kahliah - you mean make machinema of your SL adventures?
[18:56] Allen Kerensky: @Lucien the ones who conformed to your style of RP
[18:56] Lucien Velinov: Allen, I'd not see the point of roleplaying with people you do not enjoy roleplaying wiht.
[18:57] Allen Kerensky: the number of specific types is debateable - it made a good framework for discussion
[18:57] Mxgz Dartmouth: I'll play with you sometime Kaliah
[18:57] Emberzzz Mendelsohn: Well you can't LIKE everyone in a group
[18:57] MistressBrazen Bondar: agreed
[18:57] MistressBrazen Bondar: lol
[18:57] Lucien Velinov: You don't have to play with everyone in a group
[18:57] Baroun Tardis: Depends on the group
[18:57] Allen Kerensky: in SL, you choose to RP with new people all the time and turn out not to like some after you have a few scenes/sessions with them
[18:57] Cursa Charisma nods
[18:57] Joelle Tardis: No and you don't have too
[18:57] Baroun Tardis: You guys all rock, I like this group (laugh)
[18:57] Cursa Charisma grins
[18:57] Lucien Velinov: Not much of an obstacle there.
[18:57] Mxgz Dartmouth smiles
[18:57] Unlikely Messenger: I would go further to say that you don't have to and are not supposed to like everyone in a group, but tht does not mean yucan't RP together
[18:58] MistressBrazen Bondar appreciates Baroun's kindness
[18:58] Joelle Tardis: But you can exspect everyone playing on a sim to have the same basic level of curtesey and player interaction
[18:58] MistressBrazen Bondar: yes
[18:58] Allen Kerensky: true but how to get better RP in SL implies "your favorite KIND of RP"
[18:58] Unlikely Messenger: So long as you all hold to your roles, the good guy is not supposed to like the bad guy
[18:58] Unlikely Messenger: But there has to be some respect there
[18:58] Cursa Charisma: How lovely
[18:58] Lucien Velinov: Seriously?
[18:58] MistressBrazen Bondar: Mute Mxgz
[18:59] Unlikely Messenger: didn't we have something about griefing in our discussion?
[18:59] MistressBrazen Bondar: yup
[18:59] Allen Kerensky: or turn off particles with CTRL-ALT-SHIFT-=
[18:59] Lucien Velinov: That isn't really related to roleplay in specific though
[18:59] Heihachi Nakamura: oh fuckthis
[18:59] Joelle Tardis: Yeah
[18:59] Kaliah Daxter: RP IS STUPID
[18:59] Emberzzz Mendelsohn: what?
[19:00] Joelle Tardis: Looks like you have a griefer
[19:00] Lucien Velinov: There is an irony to wasting your time harrassing people because you think they are wasting time.
[19:00] Avatar ejected.
[19:00] MistressBrazen Bondar: child like imbecils
[19:00] Avatar ejected.
[19:01] Emberzzz Mendelsohn: This is my friend
[19:01] Emberzzz Mendelsohn: Alfal
[19:01] Lucien Velinov: In any case, ignoring the distraction (turn down valume and particles - no problem)...
[19:01] Avatar ejected.
[19:01] Baroun Tardis: ejecte, eh ?
[19:01] Allen Kerensky: @Lucien so, one question - how to build a profile of kinds of do and don't that large groups like
[19:01] Lucien Velinov: Any given setting will be more or less condusive to any given kind and level of roleplay.
[19:01] Allen Kerensky: @Lucien as a way for people to easily agree on specific kinds of RP and to find each other for games
[19:02] Avatar ejected.
[19:02] Lucien Velinov: My take on it?
[19:02] Allen Kerensky: sure
[19:02] Allen Kerensky: because finding your niche is the fast path to having RP fun
[19:02] Allen Kerensky: but its hard for folks to get into the groove in many places
[19:02] Allen Kerensky: and that makes bad RP experience for them, and everyone else
[19:02] MistressBrazen Bondar: agreed I dont want to be everywehere
[19:02] Lucien Velinov: Well....It's as I wrote; the key is to understand what you are doing when you roleplay to begin with.
[19:03] Allen Kerensky: leading to stuff like Cursa's capture in egypt example
[19:03] Avatar ejected.
[19:03] Lucien Velinov: Roleplay is writing.
[19:03] Allen Kerensky: so, slap all arrivals with questionnaires?
[19:03] Avatar ejected.
[19:03] Allen Kerensky: hmmm roleplay is writing. Have to elaborate to know if I agree or not
[19:03] Unlikely Messenger: It is my belife that one of the biggest problem with RP sims in SL is the idea that they are so wide open and free form that it takes too much of time commitment to becme entrenched in them
[19:04] Allen Kerensky: and I know the first-person-shooter types won't agree
[19:04] Cursa Charisma: (Why doesn't "Eject and Ban" prevent that griefer from coming back?)
[19:04] Lucien Velinov: First person shooting isn't exactly roleplay.
[19:04] Lucien Velinov: ( They are using ban evasion tools )
[19:04] Cursa Charisma: (Sigh)
[19:04] Baroun Tardis: How about taking it the other way - rather than having the player give a resume, provide one for the game .... but the question there is "How to make them actually read and understand what it means?"
[19:04] MistressBrazen Bondar: (did you ban Kaliah also?)
[19:04] Unlikely Messenger: If a scenrio is written tightly enough then it can be controlled and be fun for all involved, unless of course they are not looking for such a RP experience
[19:05] Cursa Charisma: (I did not ban Kaliah)
[19:05] Allen Kerensky: so, it comes back to know the game, the players, and the setting
[19:05] Baroun Tardis: How to facilitate that knowing ?
[19:05] Joelle Tardis: its some-one with enough SL and Dev ability and knowlege to do that Cursa indicating they are probabbly a Alt of a much older Avi
[19:05] Unlikely Messenger: I have Mxgc muted and I am not having any particles or sounds
[19:05] Cursa Charisma: Good
[19:05] Allen Kerensky: teleport in - get a 4 question form: do you like to a) shoot things b) chat c) get in costumes or d) capture slaves
[19:05] Lucien Velinov: Exactly. Going out of your way to please everyone will leave you with a generic and inconsistent setting. Simply put, any given setting is more or less condusive to any kinds of activity openly.
[19:06] Allen Kerensky: @Lucien and off the shelf setting comes with expectation, home-brew setting requires you to educate more
[19:06] Unlikely Messenger: you can't please everyone
[19:06] Allen Kerensky: if people land in star wars, they expect shootouts because they are prominent in the movies
[19:07] Allen Kerensky: if you land in firefly (and saw the show) you expect ensemble character situations
[19:07] Allen Kerensky: at least I do
[19:07] Lucien Velinov: You're not supposed to please everyone. You're supposed to support the community that plays in your setting.
[19:07] Baroun Tardis: Joelle comment : Gorean has been talked about . Kasra has limited capture & combat, but the RP concept is to roleplay the idea of a person in that city/community/world... (Baroun comment: CosPlay push) .... But most of Gor is all 4, not just Capture
[19:07] Unlikely Messenger: Great point Lucien
[19:07] Cursa Charisma: Sorry, I was distracted policing griefers - did we talk about the idea of having open areas and group-only areas, then using RP initiation/leveling to qualify people for group membership?
[19:07] Baroun Tardis: ((I type faster than she does, so I get to be transcriptionsist))
[19:07] Baroun Tardis: Joelle: but focus is _community_
[19:08] Cursa Charisma nods
[19:08] Allen Kerensky: @Cursa yes, a probation with technical controls - must be inducted to group with more permission
[19:08] Lucien Velinov: Cursa; there is nothing wrong with that...just depends on how far and how fast you expect that community to grow.
[19:08] Cursa Charisma nods
[19:08] Falcon53 Neox: which is hard to find
[19:08] Baroun Tardis: Side comment from Baroun: one thing that Gor does better than anyone else is community and education....
[19:08] Allen Kerensky: and it takes dedicated land
[19:08] Allen Kerensky: Kasra is an interesting example
[19:08] Cursa Charisma: Lucien, I think that that works with having something for everyone
[19:08] Allen Kerensky: you land and there's city laws everywhere
[19:08] Allen Kerensky: and clearly marked RP BEYOND THIS POINT
[19:09] Lucien Velinov: Gor handles education like a hammer cracks a pistachio.
[19:09] MistressBrazen Bondar: lol
[19:09] Allen Kerensky: not sure what that means
[19:09] Unlikely Messenger: I would like to invite you all to participate in an experiment I am attempting with making short one shot type adventures that allow a person to experience a short story start to finish in one sitting
[19:09] Cursa Charisma: Allen, wouldn't it be even better to have a "town crier" reporting a gruesome execution of a violator? hehe
[19:09] Baroun Tardis: @Lucien : yes and no....
[19:09] Lucien Velinov: How many of you have actually played in Gor for any lengthly period?
[19:09] Sentry Swashbuckler: @Allen: A few FF sims have started the "RP beyond this point" messages, especially where there can be a mix
[19:10] Baroun Tardis: @Lucien : Having many signs, notecards, multiple books for setting is a hammer..... having a good looking slave girl coach ou in IM is not
[19:10] Falcon53 Neox: I have
[19:10] Baroun Tardis: me
[19:10] Cursa Charisma: Goodpoint, Baroun
[19:10] Allen Kerensky: well, in Splintered Rock - when there was open rez it was a zoo - and not a good zoo of RPers - when we controlled the rez by group, the RP went up, griefers went down, and traffic died because it wasn't a playground for griefers
[19:10] Lucien Velinov: Baroun, that falls back to use of Peers
[19:10] Baroun Tardis: @Lucien - yes, but it works well
[19:10] Lucien Velinov: A number of sims employ greeters of a sort.
[19:10] Cursa Charisma: And I have not played in an avowed Gor group, but have toured Farnacium and found it a beautiful build
[19:10] Lucien Velinov: Of course it works well
[19:11] Falcon53 Neox: but it was a difficult job
[19:11] Allen Kerensky: live greeting is painful
[19:11] Allen Kerensky: but it does help weed and filter too
[19:11] Cursa Charisma: I think Baroun's questing system is a way to get around the logistics of live greeting
[19:11] Allen Kerensky: when the sim admins back it up
[19:11] Falcon53 Neox: at times it was fun
[19:11] Unlikely Messenger: A good gretter is a huge job! giving tours, answering questions, that takes very dedicated players
[19:11] Lucien Velinov: Before we were...sidetracked...One of the points we hit was the influence of peers in influencing new players.
[19:11] Cursa Charisma nods
[19:11] Joelle Tardis nods
[19:11] Joelle Tardis: and the use of NPC's
[19:12] Baroun Tardis: heh, they're slave girls.... masocists, many of them... so the painful job of greeter isn't so bad for them. People need to play to their strengths, and if someone enjoys pain.. give them a painful job
[19:12] Cursa Charisma: Thanks so much, Baroun
[19:12] Cursa Charisma makes a rude sound
[19:12] Cursa Charisma grins
[19:12] Allen Kerensky: well yes if someone enjoys a setting Lucien, they bring their friends
[19:12] Allen Kerensky: but the friends may or may not RP like the original
[19:12] Baroun Tardis nods to Cursa - the questing was intended to educate on ways to do things with the meter (in Weber), on touring the sim (in Kasra)
[19:12] Cursa Charisma: Like Maya at Splintered Rock, bringing a trailer park full of hookers
[19:12] Lucien Velinov: In their case, the role they play is highly parallel to greeting. Sit around and wait for someone to work on
[19:13] Baroun Tardis: If you do the Kasra Quests, you'll see each of the main play locations int he sim
[19:13] Cursa Charisma nods
[19:13] Cursa Charisma: Excellent, Baroun
[19:13] Joelle Tardis: Then Shoot them down with no interaction or chance to defend themselves
[19:13] Baroun Tardis: of course that leads them to where the other players hang out, which goes abck to Lucien's "Peer" arguement
[19:13] Allen Kerensky: the green dot effect
[19:13] Joelle Tardis nods in agreement with Baroun
[19:13] Lucien Velinov: Now...having a unique meter is a soft-obstacle.
[19:14] Cursa Charisma: If each interactive NPC quest is short and clear enough to appeal to a casual player, it can help draw people in for more sustained play
[19:14] Cursa Charisma: Ah, meters - a topic for another day
[19:14] Cursa Charisma grins
[19:14] Allen Kerensky: every meter requires explanation = greeter or training academy, etc
[19:14] Lucien Velinov: Soft in that it mitigates the run and gun nature of some newer players without directly dissuading their involvement.
[19:14] Allen Kerensky: or a peer to do the scutwork
[19:14] Allen Kerensky: word of mouth is number one resource for any RP
[19:15] Lucien Velinov: brb real quick
[19:15] Baroun Tardis nods to Lucien, "Yes, it makes them think some"
[19:15] Cursa Charisma: (btw, don't want to violate TOS, so I will paraphrase my conversation with Mxgz Dartmouth - me: Thank you so much - he: You are very welcome
[19:15] Allen Kerensky: and if you have players who fit the setting, and they bring more, then their style of RP gets reinforced
[19:15] Cursa Charisma: )
[19:15] Baroun Tardis nods to Cursa on the subject of Quests
[19:15] Joelle Tardis grins
[19:15] Allen Kerensky: how to make better RP in SL: be clear what you want
[19:15] Baroun Tardis nods to Allen - "Its like an avalanch , slowly building up speed and size"
[19:16] Allen Kerensky: be clear what works in RP for ou and what doesnt'
[19:16] Baroun Tardis: get 3 players.. they bring 2 friends each....
[19:16] Cursa Charisma: Yes, Allen, the core people of a group must be clear
[19:16] Allen Kerensky: when someone does good RP, tell them
[19:16] Allen Kerensky: when someone torques you off, tell them
[19:16] Cursa Charisma nods
[19:16] Allen Kerensky: which all creates drama
[19:16] Cursa Charisma: Not necessarily
[19:16] Allen Kerensky: some fdrama is good - in character conflict from RPing with good people
[19:16] Falcon53 Neox: and can lead to unexpected things
[19:16] Allen Kerensky: and some drama is bad - all of it OOC
[19:17] Cursa Charisma: IC conflict is a good thing
[19:17] Allen Kerensky: agreed
[19:17] Cursa Charisma: OOC conflict only is if it's done maturely
[19:17] Allen Kerensky: OOC conflict isn't
[19:17] Allen Kerensky: well yeah
[19:17] Falcon53 Neox: OOC confict not so good
[19:17] Allen Kerensky: honestl critques and willingness to be wrong
[19:17] Allen Kerensky: its when ego gets involved
[19:17] Allen Kerensky: My Lightsaber IS bigger than yours
[19:17] Cursa Charisma nods
[19:17] Allen Kerensky: and then the thing is done
[19:18] Allen Kerensky: one indian didn't fall down when shot
[19:18] Falcon53 Neox: I had it spill into my parters life and I just gave up
[19:18] Allen Kerensky: nod Falcon
[19:18] Cursa Charisma nods
[19:18] Allen Kerensky: and that, Falcon, was the worst
[19:18] Allen Kerensky: its supposed to be fun, and that should always be rule #1
[19:18] Joelle Tardis nods and smiles at Falcon
[19:18] Cursa Charisma: That *is* Rule # 1 here at the Nexus
[19:18] Allen Kerensky: allt eh rest, meters and such, are just ways to agree to have fun
[19:18] Falcon53 Neox: and the work on the station which still stings
[19:18] Cursa Charisma: "Do what's fun, when it's fun"
[19:19] Unlikely Messenger: Thank you all for the wonderfull discussion, but I must excuse myself
[19:19] MistressBrazen Bondar: night Unlikely
[19:19] Cursa Charisma: Unlikely, may I friend you?
[19:19] Allen Kerensky: face it, RP is "let's pretend" and people communicating and agreeing (or not) on how to play let's pretend
[19:19] Baroun Tardis: good/bad tell them : One thing we did in the Scout Adventures was a post-game vote for Brags... in short, the players went around, talked about how the RP went down, and who got credit for what. Those credits became things that were bonuses later. It made a link back to the game, a reinforcement that if you played smart and inchar/in-setting, you got recognized fro it
[19:19] Allen Kerensky: night night Unlikely!
[19:19] Unlikely Messenger: Please do Cursa, I look forward to more discussion
[19:19] Falcon53 Neox: night unlikely
[19:19] Allen Kerensky: nod Baroun
[19:19] Unlikely Messenger: night all
[19:19] Baroun Tardis: Sleep well, Unlikely
[19:19] Cursa Charisma: Excellent, I would like to receive a talk about your project
[19:20] Allen Kerensky: and those affected the character sheet
[19:20] Allen Kerensky: once we get the base back up we can resume that
[19:20] Sentry Swashbuckler: I like that idea, Baroun. As admins, we do the after-action review, but didnt think about doing it with players involved.
[19:20] Allen Kerensky: well Baroun's RP style is ... um... different
[19:20] Allen Kerensky: just try flying the sierra
[19:21] Baroun Tardis: lol
[19:21] Joelle Tardis: and in Kasra the more you RP and Interact in a positive way much like RL the more perks and higher position and rank and Status you accquire in the Community
[19:21] Baroun Tardis: Doing t with player invvled bilds cmmunit, and as the"Peer aspec
[19:22] Baroun Tardis nods to Joelle - "Yes, community recognition is a reward in that case"
[19:22] Baroun Tardis: really..... we don't have XP or Gold or such that traditional RPGs have
[19:22] Baroun Tardis: SL, you can build whatever
[19:22] Allen Kerensky: just Brags and Flags
[19:22] Allen Kerensky: what have you done,a nd what can you do
[19:22] Baroun Tardis: so not much demand that the only place to get a +1 sword is from the adventure
[19:22] Cursa Charisma: Well, there could be gold and such if you wanted to make a system
[19:23] Baroun Tardis: right - but the players could (and did, in fact, add it to HTCS (laugh))
[19:23] Joelle Tardis: there is just not as a Player reward
[19:23] Allen Kerensky: has anyone seen the DCS "roleplay points" really used?
[19:23] Baroun Tardis: but the biggest reward for the Player is the acceptance and respect of other players
[19:23] Sentry Swashbuckler: No, Allen.
[19:23] Allen Kerensky: i know I had some
[19:23] Allen Kerensky: but the system wouldn't let me give them away
[19:24] Allen Kerensky: and I never heard anyone talk about that "reputation" as a score system or whatever as a way to promote better RP
[19:24] Allen Kerensky: but RL roleplayers DO have reputations
[19:24] Cursa Charisma nods
[19:24] Joelle Tardis: So Do SL Rpers
[19:24] Allen Kerensky: and when certain people come to town, you clear the calendar to go game with them
[19:24] Baroun Tardis shrugs - "I went with Brags in HTCS to try to do the reputation thing, to let you show your bona fides to other potential play mates"
[19:24] Lucien Velinov: Alright, I've returned
[19:24] Allen Kerensky: well, I know one like that I guess
[19:24] Allen Kerensky: named Tyro Dreamscape
[19:24] Cursa Charisma: wb, Lucien
[19:24] Baroun Tardis: WB
[19:25] Falcon53 Neox: wb
[19:25] Allen Kerensky: Tyro is always a blast to combat with in DCS
[19:25] Joelle Tardis: GO anywhere in Gor and ask a Sim Owner about Lady Joelle
[19:25] Baroun Tardis grins
[19:25] Cursa Charisma smiles broadly
[19:25] Allen Kerensky: and then run? do they get upset?
[19:25] Lucien Velinov: For the record, OOC drama is something that killed the SW community more than once.
[19:25] Baroun Tardis: Visit any mental health facility, and ask them about Bar.... oh, oops... never mind
[19:25] Cursa Charisma nods
[19:26] Joelle Tardis: Not usually Most Like and/or Respect a few fear and a small # hate
[19:26] Cursa Charisma: To Lucien, hehe
[19:26] Allen Kerensky: @Lucien i bet
[19:26] Sentry Swashbuckler: As far as reputations... I think that how you RP in a group, does translate into respect and acceptance. It's how I attribute 20 people trying to break me out of jail in one RP scenario.
[19:26] Lucien Velinov: Also, to the question of people that run by the meter or prefer to hack and slash..
[19:26] Allen Kerensky: nod Sentry
[19:26] Cursa Charisma: Another topic for another day can be how a given RP setting affects the OOC behavior of the community RPing it
[19:26] Baroun Tardis nods to Sentry - EXACTLY ! YES!
[19:26] Allen Kerensky: @Lucien depends on the meter
[19:26] Lucien Velinov: Even the D&D handbook draws the line between roleplaying and simply playing the game.
[19:26] Baroun Tardis nods to Lucien
[19:26] Cursa Charisma: heh
[19:27] Sentry Swashbuckler: I look forward to that topic, Cursa.
[19:27] Cursa Charisma nods
[19:27] Allen Kerensky: @Cursa oh my that sounds like a scary talk
[19:27] Cursa Charisma: Which reminds me!
[19:27] Allen Kerensky: well, another talk should be "Everything you know about Gor is wrong"
[19:27] Joelle Tardis grins
[19:28] Lucien Velinov: Dunno....Alot of people that don't like Gor are pretty well and familiar with what it is.
[19:28] Cursa Charisma: We need to think about topics for future talks, and speakers who would like to give them
[19:28] Allen Kerensky: @Lucien depends on where you go - I've been on both sides of that fence
[19:28] Joelle Tardis: I Came into SL when the only organized RP Community was Gor
[19:28] Cursa Charisma: Yes, Joelle, and for many, it still is
[19:28] Allen Kerensky: bah, Furries were first
[19:28] Cursa Charisma: Many people don't know there is anything else
[19:28] Baroun Tardis: Heck, I've seen "SW Sexual RP"
[19:28] Lucien Velinov: Well, I'm up for feedback on the mini-lecture I gave in group chat
[19:28] Allen Kerensky: and that's Cosplay for Pros
[19:29] Cursa Charisma: OK, do we want to have Lucien give the next talk
[19:29] Baroun Tardis: and I've seen a lot of Gor non-sex/non-Ds action
[19:29] Cursa Charisma: ?
[19:29] Joelle Tardis nods
[19:29] Baroun Tardis: I'd like to ask Lucien to give a talk on "Peer"
[19:29] Cursa Charisma: (Yes, Baroun, that would be a good topic for a talk)
[19:29] Lucien Velinov: Peers? Other playes.
[19:29] Allen Kerensky: and that RP style notecard
[19:29] Cursa Charisma: Excellent!
[19:30] Allen Kerensky: it starts with tl;dr LOL
[19:30] Lucien Velinov: Liked it that much, eh?
[19:30] MistressBrazen Bondar: just a note for you all....
[19:30] MistressBrazen Bondar: not everyone was a D&D player
[19:30] Cursa Charisma: Excellent point, Brazen!
[19:30] Allen Kerensky: easily fixed Brazen
[19:30] MistressBrazen Bondar: so it may be helpful to say the whole word the first reference
[19:30] Joelle Tardis looks at Brazen Shocked
[19:30] Baroun Tardis: Peers are other players, yes, but it sounds like you (Lucien) have thought that interaction out more than the first layer
[19:30] Joelle Tardis grins
[19:30] MistressBrazen Bondar shrugs
[19:30] Sentry Swashbuckler: D and what?
[19:30] MistressBrazen Bondar: sorry not THAT much of a ggek
[19:30] Baroun Tardis: I'm sorry, Brazen.....
[19:30] Allen Kerensky: you played D&D - it might have been called Warcraft or something
[19:31] Cursa Charisma: Domination & Discipline?
[19:31] Lucien Velinov: The RP note I gave doesn't reference any particular setting or game platform
[19:31] Allen Kerensky: but... only minis players can snub the might Dunjoons and Dragooons
[19:31] Baroun Tardis: I haven't seen the note ...
[19:31] Lucien Velinov: Baroun: Somewhat.
[19:31] Joelle Tardis: me either
[19:31] Lucien Velinov: Alright, lol
[19:31] Allen Kerensky: i need to get out the RP table and some d20 rules
[19:31] Lucien Velinov: I have two notes here: The first is the note I drew up on the basics of RP. The second is a mini-lecture I gave over group chat about meters and roleplay
[19:32] Lucien Velinov: Who wants which?
[19:32] MistressBrazen Bondar: like that ALlen
[19:32] Joelle Tardis rolls a natural 20 and sticks her tongue out at Allen
[19:32] MistressBrazen Bondar: wth is an rp table? D20?
[19:32] Cursa Charisma: Lucien, would you like to have them in a dispenser here?
[19:32] Falcon53 Neox: I like both
[19:32] Sentry Swashbuckler: Both, please.
[19:32] Falcon53 Neox: ((I'd))
[19:32] Lucien Velinov: By all means, distribute and give feedback
[19:32] Sentry Swashbuckler: D20 is what the Serenity RPG does NOT use.
[19:32] Sentry Swashbuckler: FYI
[19:32] Baroun Tardis: I'd like themeter one also, please
[19:32] Allen Kerensky: lol
[19:32] Allen Kerensky: I have Serenity too
[19:32] Cursa Charisma: Lucien, if you give me copies, I will put them in a dispenser here
[19:33] Sentry Swashbuckler: Thank you Lucien.
[19:33] Cursa Charisma: And if you have any favored graphics to go on the dispenser...
[19:33] Allen Kerensky: got one of the signed pre-order copies even
[19:33] Allen Kerensky: big <3 for Firefly
[19:34] Sentry Swashbuckler: awwww
[19:34] Baroun Tardis: Firefly is the good
[19:34] Lucien Velinov: When I spoke of peers, I meant in the general sense.
[19:34] Joelle Tardis thinks she has been doing rp and rpg's longer than some of these people have been living
[19:34] Allen Kerensky: Firefly = applied Traveller, and big <3 for traveller too
[19:34] Lucien Velinov: New players to the sim are heavily influenced by their interaction with other players in the sim. This is why greeters are so effective.
[19:34] MistressBrazen Bondar: dont assume how long people have been living
[19:34] MistressBrazen Bondar accepted your inventory offer.
[19:34] MistressBrazen Bondar: :)
[19:35] Joelle Tardis: Yes I Know your a old fart too
[19:35] Joelle Tardis grins
[19:35] Lucien Velinov: Traveller = Only game where you can die in chargen
[19:35] MistressBrazen Bondar: yep
[19:35] Allen Kerensky: fine since everyone wants to lay things on tables and compare with rulers - rolled my first fighter in 1978. Do better or worse, just RP well.
[19:35] Baroun Tardis nods to Lucien - "Kinda like real life..."
[19:35] Lucien Velinov: LOL
[19:35] Allen Kerensky: well... there was one called Living Steel
[19:35] Allen Kerensky: but yeah, Traveller actually sold copies
[19:35] Sentry Swashbuckler: Agreed, Lucien. Its what we try to do with some of the FF sims, have experienced RPers / admins around to catch new people coming in, and interact.
[19:35] MistressBrazen Bondar: ok..this is where I glaze over and tp out
[19:36] Cursa Charisma: Hang on, Brazen
[19:36] Cursa Charisma: heheh
[19:36] Allen Kerensky: greeters - worth all the money you can spend on them
[19:36] Allen Kerensky: of course, most work free
[19:36] Lucien Velinov: Alot of sims do it. Only thing is...You need a coordinated staff, or people who are just otherwise on the lookout.
[19:36] Allen Kerensky: or people who live in the sim as their SL home
[19:36] Lucien Velinov: Gor sims handle it the easy way and make it the responsibility of slave girls. Other sims have a number of other ways of handling it.
[19:36] Allen Kerensky: and want the RP and people there not to stink the place up and turn it into mainland
[19:37] Allen Kerensky: yeah, Gor has well defined roles and a large base of people who understand them
[19:37] Lucien Velinov: But regardless, peer interaction is the best way to guide newer players into your setting and ruleset.
[19:37] Joelle Tardis: or all of the above as well as a pager sytem
[19:37] Cursa Charisma nods
[19:37] Lucien Velinov: For many, the setting isn't the issue so much as the ruleset.
[19:37] Allen Kerensky: hmmm you think?
[19:37] Baroun Tardis: yes, some people
[19:37] Allen Kerensky: I saw a lot of people who could care less about meters or whatever
[19:38] Baroun Tardis: but that depends on how you define "ruleset"
[19:38] Lucien Velinov: Which is a problem if conflict resolution is dependant upon your meter.
[19:38] Allen Kerensky: rock-paper-scissors was too structured for some folks *cough* amber *cough*
[19:38] Cursa Charisma: Yes, Baroun
[19:38] Baroun Tardis: I'm going to say that RPS isn't a real comfy ruleset for me
[19:38] Cursa Charisma: And note that there are many people for whom "role playing" means freeform text-based collaborative fiction
[19:38] Baroun Tardis: Amber Diceless wasn't RPS
[19:38] Baroun Tardis nods to Cursa - and the issue there is sometimes the text flows badly
[19:39] Allen Kerensky: yeah, you can play D&D without dice and books too
[19:39] Baroun Tardis: or there's a random event that needs randomized
[19:39] Cursa Charisma: There is a lot of "role-playing" in venues such as Myface that is pure text
[19:39] Joelle Tardis gave you Kasra Near the Tahari Brief History.
[19:39] Allen Kerensky: just know the setting from the books and tell your story
[19:39] Lucien Velinov: RPS?
[19:39] Allen Kerensky: play-by-mail
[19:39] Cursa Charisma: (thanks for notecards, Joelle
[19:39] Allen Kerensky: rock paper scissors = RPS
[19:39] Baroun Tardis: Rock-Paper-Scissors
[19:39] Lucien Velinov: Wow.
[19:39] Allen Kerensky: used in some LARPS even
[19:39] Sentry Swashbuckler: (Folks, I need to go, but thank you for the great discussion, and I look forward to the transcript - and the next one.)
[19:39] Baroun Tardis: Thanks for coming, Sentry
[19:39] Cursa Charisma: Thanks, Sentry
[19:39] Baroun Tardis: good meeting you
[19:39] MistressBrazen Bondar: what is LARP
[19:40] Allen Kerensky: and SL has RPS gestures just for that, has since day one
[19:40] MistressBrazen Bondar: cya Sentry
[19:40] Allen Kerensky: Live Action Roleplaying
[19:40] Baroun Tardis: Live Action Role Play --
[19:40] Cursa Charisma: Shindig still going on at Washburn?
[19:40] Sentry Swashbuckler: thank you all
[19:40] Baroun Tardis: it's like SL< but with no computers
[19:40] Allen Kerensky: you be a vampire wizard in real life
[19:40] Baroun Tardis: and you use your actual body
[19:40] Allen Kerensky: go to a meeting
[19:40] Sentry Swashbuckler: Yes, it is. Probably for another hour or two.
[19:40] Joelle Tardis gave you Kasra Laws and Rules - QUICK START.
[19:40] MistressBrazen Bondar: glad you are feeling better from your recent experiences
[19:40] Baroun Tardis: the sex animations are better
[19:40] Baroun Tardis: lol
[19:40] Cursa Charisma laughs
[19:40] Sentry Swashbuckler: Thanks, Brazen. :D
[19:40] Allen Kerensky: and use some loose rules on casting spells or influiencing people with special powers
[19:40] Falcon53 Neox: I'd love to stay but have a bit of a issue to deal with see you all for now
[19:40] Allen Kerensky: wave Falcon
[19:40] Cursa Charisma: Peace, Falcon
[19:40] Falcon53 Neox: night all
[19:40] MistressBrazen Bondar: bye Falcon.
[19:41] Allen Kerensky: SL is very much like LARP with too many buttons
[19:41] Baroun Tardis: Layter Falcon
[19:41] Joelle Tardis grins and waves at Falcon
[19:41] Baroun Tardis: and SL has lag....
[19:41] Allen Kerensky: so do larps
[19:41] Allen Kerensky: while you want for someone to think think think think
[19:41] Baroun Tardis: well... yeah.... I guess
[19:41] Allen Kerensky: or for the wilting wallflower to explode his special power
[19:41] Allen Kerensky: *sigh&
[19:42] Lucien Velinov: Why I don't larp lol
[19:42] Allen Kerensky: i got into some PARANOIA LARP - that works
[19:42] Allen Kerensky: zap zap zap
[19:42] Cursa Charisma: Ooh, ROY G BIV!
[19:42] Allen Kerensky: other than that, yeah - I am not a LARPer
[19:42] MistressBrazen Bondar stretchs and throws water on her face.
[19:43] Allen Kerensky: I even had a fuzzy commie hat
[19:43] Cursa Charisma: I think immersion is a much bigger hurdle for many people in LARP as opposed to SL
[19:43] MistressBrazen Bondar: I'll catch you all later. SOme inetersting comments tonite
[19:43] Allen Kerensky: nod Cursa
[19:43] Baroun Tardis: I go to an office 5 days a week, and RP being a corprate employee... does that count ?
[19:43] Cursa Charisma: It's quite easy to establish immersion in SL
[19:43] Allen Kerensky: you cand o spells easier in SL
[19:43] Cursa Charisma: Is it fun, Baroun?
[19:43] Baroun Tardis: Good night, Brazen, take care of yourself
[19:43] Allen Kerensky: nod Baroun
begin notecard 2 of 2

[19:43] Allen Kerensky: Papers and Paychecks
[19:43] Baroun Tardis: Not really, Cursa, but the loot isn't bad
[19:43] Allen Kerensky: the RP I do nmore hours a week than all others combined
[19:43] Allen Kerensky: i ama lootwhore in Papers and Paychecks
[19:44] Baroun Tardis laughs
[19:44] Cursa Charisma: Heh
[19:44] Allen Kerensky: i like the discussion - how to make for better RP in SL
[19:44] Lucien Velinov: There is a visual element to SL that aids in the immersion
[19:44] Allen Kerensky: a topic near and dear to me since 2004
[19:44] Cursa Charisma: Yes, for most people, looking at meat avatars is less immersive, hehe
[19:45] Allen Kerensky: yeah
[19:45] Cursa Charisma: Allen, that is the overall goal of the Nexus
[19:45] Lucien Velinov: Allen: The first step is defining what exactly you want, and what you are willing to sacrafice to get it.
[19:45] Allen Kerensky: the "princess" needs a shave
[19:45] Allen Kerensky: nod Lucien
[19:45] Cursa Charisma: To have interested and capable people gather and develop standards of effective practice
[19:45] Cursa Charisma: Yes, Lucien
[19:45] Lucien Velinov: You'll have to be a bit more specific than that, Cursa. Let's not kid ourselves here.
[19:46] Joelle Tardis nods
[19:46] Allen Kerensky: standard and practice? Herald Level SL GMs?
[19:46] Cursa Charisma: I'm not talking about a prescriptive set of Laws
[19:46] Cursa Charisma: Talking about examples of things that have worked
[19:46] Allen Kerensky: well
[19:46] Lucien Velinov: Some people want wide, expansive and dynamic communities with plenty of growth; while other prefer small groups of similar individuals with a more consistent environment.
[19:46] Cursa Charisma: And lists of pitfalls and special features of the SL medium that impact organizing and operating RP ventures
[19:47] Allen Kerensky: I did SR greeting for a year
[19:47] Allen Kerensky: lots of do and don't there
[19:47] Lucien Velinov: Some people want a very specific and restrictive setting, while others prefer something completely open ended.
[19:47] Lucien Velinov: From freeform text roleplay to any given variety of meter
[19:47] Allen Kerensky: so, a way to clearly describe the setting upfront to new players
[19:47] Baroun Tardis: SL disadvantage : Time Zones..... All of them. Hard to get all yourplayers together at once
[19:47] Joelle Tardis: well I think that survival of either type requires some at least basic rules
[19:48] Baroun Tardis: Advantage: There's always something happeneing
[19:48] Cursa Charisma: Time zones, tier, and text are the Terrible Triad
[19:48] Lucien Velinov: Baroun: That is difficult for most tabletop games
[19:48] Baroun Tardis nods to Lucien, "Gets worse with time zones"
[19:49] Allen Kerensky: well, the TZ problem sorts itself with language somewhat
[19:49] Lucien Velinov: I suppose...
[19:49] Allen Kerensky: spanish players run in spanish speaking groups, for example
[19:49] Joelle Tardis: Not really allen
[19:49] Allen Kerensky: and RP by translator is peril
[19:49] Lucien Velinov: Only if the translator sucks
[19:49] Allen Kerensky: I am speaking based on doing tours and stuff
[19:49] Cursa Charisma: English is worldwide
[19:49] Joelle Tardis: I find lots of people try to do just that
[19:49] Joelle Tardis: RP by Translator
[19:49] Allen Kerensky: *try*
[19:49] Lucien Velinov: Need a translator that doesn't read open chat
[19:50] Joelle Tardis: does make for some interesting and funny moments sometimes
[19:50] Lucien Velinov: Does well enough
[19:50] Allen Kerensky: yeah
[19:50] Allen Kerensky: I used to live in a Japanese sim
[19:50] Baroun Tardis: Italian Goreans are .... different
[19:50] Allen Kerensky: crazy visits
[19:50] Cursa Charisma: Ah, so ka, Aren-san?
[19:51] Joelle Tardis nods at Baroun
[19:51] Allen Kerensky: was better when SL got a unicode font
[19:51] Allen Kerensky: lol
[19:51] Cursa Charisma: But translation with Japanese does not work - it's usually worse than nothing
[19:51] Allen Kerensky: so timezones means thinking about different regional groups running their own sessions, events, etc
[19:52] Allen Kerensky: and some overlaps
[19:52] Baroun Tardis: and beyond just translating the words, there's cultural items behind the words
[19:52] Allen Kerensky: and yes some english crossovers
[19:52] Joelle Tardis: yes best communication is if your Obi is tied correctly
[19:52] Joelle Tardis grins
[19:52] Cursa Charisma: Fact is, at this time in history, English is the common language of Earth. People assimilate to it if the activity involved is desirable to them
[19:52] Allen Kerensky: yep
[19:52] Cursa Charisma: Or untied correctly, as the case may be
[19:52] Joelle Tardis chuckles
[19:52] Allen Kerensky: but the time difference separate people into groups anyway
[19:52] Cursa Charisma: Yes and no
[19:52] Cursa Charisma: I'm in Japan
[19:52] Lucien Velinov: That may change in the near future depending on whether the US loses it's cultural Hegemon
[19:52] Allen Kerensky: and when you see portuguese groups go to town, its interesting
[19:52] Lucien Velinov: Hegemony*
[19:53] Lucien Velinov: But that's a different discussion entirely lol
[19:53] Baroun Tardis nods sadly
[19:53] Cursa Charisma: It is, Lucien
[19:53] Cursa Charisma grins
[19:53] Joelle Tardis: Warning Allen
[19:53] Joelle Tardis: Kasra has Citizens from the Eastern Block to South America
[19:53] Allen Kerensky: yep
[19:53] Baroun Tardis: which becomes interesting sometimes
[19:53] Lucien Velinov: Don't suppose anyone took a look at either of the notes I distributed?
[19:53] Baroun Tardis: I did
[19:54] Allen Kerensky: and if you watch them - you will see some standard pattersn to login and logout times
[19:54] Allen Kerensky: just means the sims get more 24/7 usage if you accept it and make room for it
[19:54] Joelle Tardis nods
[19:54] Baroun Tardis: well, yeah, Allen, they gotta got to work to
[19:54] Joelle Tardis: Bed time their time for one
[19:54] Baroun Tardis: and sleep and such
[19:54] Allen Kerensky: that was all I was trying to say earlier
[19:54] Baroun Tardis: but it does mean that you don't get full turn out for events....
[19:54] Allen Kerensky: the sim is open 24/7 and if you cater to "regional" play in events and greeting, it can help
[19:55] Cursa Charisma: (still waiting for those notecards, Lucien)
[19:55] Allen Kerensky: "Americas" events vs "Europe Events"
[19:55] Baroun Tardis: /menods
[19:55] Joelle Tardis: We try to do some of all
[19:55] Allen Kerensky: and the best turnouts are always at overlap tapes when more than one large region has typical slack time
[19:55] Cursa Charisma: Yes
[19:55] Allen Kerensky: overlap times - weird typo
[19:56] Cursa Charisma: cerebral flatulence episode?
[19:56] Baroun Tardis: I need to log , friends - have work in the morning
[19:56] Allen Kerensky: but greeters need translators and some idea of overall schedules to steer people to right groups
[19:56] Cursa Charisma: Baroun, thanks for coming and helping!
[19:56] Allen Kerensky: wave Baroun
[19:56] Joelle Tardis snuggles him for a minute
[19:56] Baroun Tardis: Been an honro and a pleasure, thank you for having the event , and thanks for the talk, Cursa
[19:56] Baroun Tardis kisses Joelle
[19:56] Cursa Charisma nods
[19:56] Allen Kerensky: ew witht eh constant mushy stuff
[19:56] Cursa Charisma waves to Baroun, doesn't need a kiss
[19:56] Allen Kerensky: its like they're married but like it
[19:57] Joelle Tardis: Yes I am finding I Like Cursa's Intelligence
[19:57] Baroun Tardis laughs, "Ironically, she's sitting a meter and a half to my left in real life... "
[19:57] Cursa Charisma: HTCS meter?
[19:57] Joelle Tardis: and thats because we are wierd
[19:57] Cursa Charisma makes a rude sound
[19:57] Cursa Charisma: hehehe
[19:57] Cursa Charisma: Thanks, Joelle
[19:57] Joelle Tardis: we are married and still like each other
[19:57] Cursa Charisma: I look forward to reading up on Kasra
[19:57] Baroun Tardis: Cursa, I'll give a talk on HTCS if the crowd would like
[19:57] Cursa Charisma: Would like!
[19:58] Baroun Tardis: Be glad to , everyone likes showing off what they made in SL
[19:58] Baroun Tardis chuckles
[19:58] Allen Kerensky: yeah
[19:58] Cursa Charisma: Right now, we're looking at Lucien talking next week, is that right?
[19:58] Baroun Tardis: and we're getting more sim owners wanting it, so ...
[19:58] Allen Kerensky: brag brag brag
[19:58] Emberzzz Mendelsohn: :)
[19:58] Baroun Tardis listens for a moment to see if Lucien is on next week
[19:59] Cursa Charisma: (btw, how do I turn particles back on?)
[19:59] Allen Kerensky: CTRL-ALT-SHIFT-= again
[19:59] Allen Kerensky: or Advanced Menu -> Rendering -> Types -> Particles
[19:59] Emberzzz Mendelsohn: oh lovely
[19:59] Cursa Charisma: Got it, thanks
[20:00] Lucien Velinov gave you Lecture: Meters and Roleplay.
[20:00] Lucien Velinov: Anyone else need the notes?
[20:00] Emberzzz Mendelsohn: I do Lucien
[20:00] Cursa Charisma: OK, which topic from Lucien next week, Meters or Style?
[20:01] Cursa Charisma: No preference?
[20:02] Cursa Charisma: OK, well, I'm going to say I'd like to hear about Style first
[20:02] Lucien Velinov: I suppose Style. Don't know what to elaborate on, it's all pretty much said there lol
[20:02] Cursa Charisma: Well, delivering that as a talk would be great
[20:02] Allen Kerensky: how to identify styles and some common ones you see?
[20:03] Lucien Velinov: I can do that.
[20:03] Cursa Charisma: Excellent!
[20:03] Cursa Charisma: Well, Medea evidently got caught up offline or in IM Hell...
[20:04] Cursa Charisma: So I am looking at the clock and want to say an huge thank-you to all of you for coming and participating tonight. It was very rewarding having this chance to talk and to listen
[20:04] Joelle Tardis gave you 3 Steps to Gorean Roleplay.
[20:05] Cursa Charisma: Anyone who wants to stay, and to use the Nexus at any time, please feel free
[20:05] Lucien Velinov: I rather like the cut of this group's jib - so to speak
[20:05] Cursa Charisma grins
[20:05] Lucien Velinov: I'm surprised that this group, of all places, would be the target of griefers
[20:05] Cursa Charisma: It was surprising
[20:05] Emberzzz Mendelsohn: yes it's unsetttling.
[20:06] Cursa Charisma: I want to say how impressed I was with how everyone responded
[20:06] Joelle Tardis gave you Kasra is seeking.
[20:06] Allen Kerensky: well, Joelle can tell you: I am to blame
[20:06] Lucien Velinov: Someone piss off a few guys they shouldn't have?
[20:06] Joelle Tardis grins
[20:06] Cursa Charisma: Oh, Allen?
[20:06] Lucien Velinov: Well with no build/script going, there is only so much they can do
[20:06] Cursa Charisma: Yes
[20:06] Cursa Charisma: But he did manage to rez some prims somewhere and move them onto the parcel
[20:07] Cursa Charisma: I returned them
[20:07] Cursa Charisma: hehe
[20:07] Allen Kerensky: yeah, they have tools to locate rez parcels anywhere on a sim quickly
[20:07] Allen Kerensky: actually, falcon may have been the target
[20:07] Emberzzz Mendelsohn: Well mostly I think you just ignore them they leave alone.
[20:07] Cursa Charisma: If you would like to hold an event that requires rezzing here, just let me know so I can have you added to the parcel management group
[20:07] Lucien Velinov: Only thing I would rez is a notecard dispenser lol
[20:07] Allen Kerensky: and I may have been the secondary target
[20:08] Allen Kerensky: we both used to admin at the same sim
[20:08] Cursa Charisma: Allen, would you like to give a talk on the griefer "culture" some time? I'd like to learn more about it
[20:08] Allen Kerensky: hmmm i could do that
[20:08] Joelle Tardis: That last NC Cursa was one I wrote after I got tired of the Preconcieved Ideas
[20:08] Cursa Charisma: Ah, so that wasn't a purpose-built alt?
[20:08] Cursa Charisma: Thanks, Joelle
[20:08] Allen Kerensky: it probably was
[20:08] Allen Kerensky: alts are easy to make with ShoopLife or ThugLyfe
[20:08] Joelle Tardis: Yes someone you irritated or disagreed with
[20:09] Lucien Velinov: Alts are easy to make period.
[20:09] Lucien Velinov: Shoop/Thug just adds the ban evasion tools to avoid getting locked out.
[20:09] Allen Kerensky: well, I know falcon banned some folks and griefs per year went from zero to 3 in a 2 month span
[20:09] Cursa Charisma: Well, yes, mainly people ignored, shared how to stop being bothered, and I booted him 5 times until he gave up
[20:10] Allen Kerensky: and then I cost them a free sandbox - but not sure if they knew that was me
[20:10] Joelle Tardis: so who have you pissed off Cursa?
[20:10] Joelle Tardis grins
[20:10] Cursa Charisma: And then insulted him as hard as I knew how - "Thank you so much"
[20:10] Allen Kerensky: and thats the number one thing to do with griefers - IGNORE them
[20:10] Allen Kerensky: getting upset only lets them enjoy the grief
[20:10] Emberzzz Mendelsohn: funny....Cursa....well, it seems impossible for him to irritate someone.
[20:10] Cursa Charisma: Joelle, nobody who's pissed me off would dare to come here
[20:10] Cursa Charisma: hehehe
[20:11] Emberzzz Mendelsohn: Maybe they just got it wrong.
[20:11] Allen Kerensky: i usually like to grade the images
[20:11] Afalalota Cummings: griefers are like trolls... and should never be fed :)
[20:11] Cursa Charisma: Right
[20:11] Allen Kerensky: "not very funny what else you got?" that sort of thing
[20:11] Lucien Velinov: Griefers ARE trolls
[20:11] Allen Kerensky: yep
[20:11] Cursa Charisma nods
[20:11] Afalalota Cummings: nah, the two are very different in my experience
[20:11] Allen Kerensky: and if you can troll them back, win!
[20:11] Emberzzz Mendelsohn: aw, they're mostly just kids.
[20:11] Heihachi Nakamura gave you Ol Faithful.
[20:11] Afalalota Cummings: a troll tends to try to act intellectual
[20:11] Joelle Tardis: you know I have rarely had a sim Griefed in all my years in SL
[20:11] Afalalota Cummings: a griefer just tends to act like a 12 year old boy
[20:12] Cursa Charisma: This is my first experience with being griefed
[20:12] Lucien Velinov: And trolls are mature?
[20:12] Allen Kerensky: ah
[20:12] Afalalota Cummings: trolls just tend to try to act intellectual...
[20:12] Afalalota Cummings: doesn't mean they are intellectual or mature ;)
[20:12] Lucien Velinov: Depends on the troll and what they are trolling
[20:12] Cursa Charisma: Some trolls have a sustained malice that takes longer to rot in the heart
[20:12] Allen Kerensky: well, like RP you could say there's 4 main kinds - chat spam, particles, sounds, and physics bombs
[20:13] Allen Kerensky: chat spam usually spoofs someone elses name saying nastiness
[20:13] Allen Kerensky: sounds and particles you can imagine
[20:13] Cursa Charisma: That's nasty
[20:13] Allen Kerensky: and physics bombs try to lag and crash sims
[20:13] Lucien Velinov: And just like RP, if you just shuffle the whole of trolling into those 4 categories you miss out on alot of the point
[20:13] Cursa Charisma: That's very nasty on a mainland region
[20:13] Emberzzz Mendelsohn: well I get griefed alot when i come here
[20:13] Allen Kerensky: sigh yes you can split hairs or not as much as you like
[20:13] Emberzzz Mendelsohn: 4 times the first month
[20:14] Cursa Charisma: Hey, my talk was not putting RP into those categories - it was noting the RPers put RP into those categories for themselves!!
[20:14] Cursa Charisma makes a rude sound
[20:14] Allen Kerensky: but statistically, especially with script kiddies
[20:14] Cursa Charisma: hehehe
[20:14] Allen Kerensky: true every griefing is unique
[20:14] Allen Kerensky: but the attack tools clump together
[20:14] Allen Kerensky: and most of them are freely downloadable - so you see them overused without any knowledge of how they work
[20:14] Cursa Charisma nods
[20:14] Emberzzz Mendelsohn: nods
[20:15] Cursa Charisma: Also a problem
[20:15] Allen Kerensky: defend against the common ones, and you cover the wide part of the curve
[20:15] Emberzzz Mendelsohn: griefing tools are fun to disect
[20:15] Lucien Velinov: Well if you want to say there are 4 common tools used, then sure.
[20:15] Cursa Charisma: Like giving away loaded AK-47s in front of elementary schools
[20:15] Allen Kerensky: no I said 4 kinds of common "harrassing effects"
[20:15] Emberzzz Mendelsohn: that's terrible.
[20:15] Allen Kerensky: but I wasn't clear or disclaimery enough
[20:15] Allen Kerensky: there are tons of ways to annoy
[20:16] Allen Kerensky whispers: starting with bad hair in SL
[20:16] Cursa Charisma laughs
[20:16] Lucien Velinov: Sure I'll just go with it lol
[20:16] Allen Kerensky: someone lands, ARC 20,000+ and its all hairdo
[20:16] Cursa Charisma: lol
[20:16] Lucien Velinov: Trolling is most interesting when it goes subversive
[20:17] Allen Kerensky: not sure what that means
[20:17] Allen Kerensky: political trolling?
[20:17] Cursa Charisma: And yes, AOs and bling and meters can lagg as badly as a deliberate attack, lol
[20:17] Allen Kerensky: agenda-driven?
[20:17] Lucien Velinov: You know what subversive means, yes?
[20:17] Allen Kerensky bites tongue on subject of bling
[20:17] Cursa Charisma grins
[20:17] Allen Kerensky: in a general sense yes, not in the point you are trying to make with it, since there's not a lot of context
[20:18] Allen Kerensky: subversive trolling in what sense?
[20:18] Lucien Velinov: Subversive trolling is where you see alot of the wit and cunning of people who make a hobby of trolling.
[20:18] Cursa Charisma: I hope that Unlikely does come back - his concept looks very interesting. One-shot RPs
[20:18] Allen Kerensky: so, non-political trolling then
[20:18] Lucien Velinov: Can be political.
[20:19] Lucien Velinov: Jump into a group of republicans and pretend to be an idiot redneck
[20:19] Allen Kerensky: well some of that can simply be people trying to one-up others in contets of wits
[20:19] Lucien Velinov: Become a serious footbullet.
[20:19] Allen Kerensky: or less subtle like that example
[20:19] Cursa Charisma: (subversive political trolling example) Barack Obama's Nobel Prize is like _____'s Grammy Award: a) Mariah Carey b) Men At Work c) Milli Vanilli
[20:20] Cursa Charisma winks
[20:20] Allen Kerensky: d) lolwut?
[20:20] Joelle Tardis grins
[20:20] Lucien Velinov: In being a subversive troll, the idea is not to give away that you are trolling
[20:20] Cursa Charisma nods
[20:20] Allen Kerensky: is like a peace prize given by a bomb designer to a communist?
[20:20] Cursa Charisma: Yes
[20:20] Cursa Charisma: The art of trolling, if you will
[20:20] Cursa Charisma: Ninja trolling
[20:20] Lucien Velinov: Well at least Obama had the sense to deny that he deserved it.
[20:20] Allen Kerensky: I mean, didn't Nobel invent dynamite?
[20:21] Lucien Velinov: Honestly, it was more like an award for not being Bush 43
[20:21] Cursa Charisma: Ah, Lucien, but he didn't decline it, as Le Duc Tho did in 1973
[20:21] Cursa Charisma: Yes, Lucien, that was the basis of the award
[20:21] Allen Kerensky: the only comment I heard that made sense was ... Obama gets the prize as LCROSS bombs the moon.
[20:21] Cursa Charisma: LOL
[20:21] Allen Kerensky: and that was from someone in the UK I think
[20:22] Emberzzz Mendelsohn: Awards are all lies anyways.
[20:22] Cursa Charisma: Well, they are something other than what they purport to be, yes
[20:22] Emberzzz Mendelsohn: it's supposed to stand for something
[20:22] Joelle Tardis: That go to Polotitions
[20:22] Emberzzz Mendelsohn: but it's just liek all these "honorary degrees" they give out at colleges...
[20:22] Cursa Charisma: So let's give an RP Nexus award for Congeniality to Mxgz Dartmouth!
[20:23] Joelle Tardis: What go they have in Common?
[20:23] Allen Kerensky: oh my, the beer must be flowing now
[20:23] Joelle Tardis: Lie
[20:23] Emberzzz Mendelsohn: Bill Cosby came and spoke at my college, they gave him an "honorary degree"
[20:23] Emberzzz Mendelsohn: so why did I go there for 5 years?
[20:23] Cursa Charisma laughs
[20:23] Allen Kerensky: because you aren't bill cosby?
[20:23] Lucien Velinov: Honorary degree won't get you a job
[20:23] Emberzzz Mendelsohn: Serioulsly ... crap
[20:23] Afalalota Cummings: politics... from the greek poly, many, and ticks, blood sucking parasites
[20:23] Afalalota Cummings: best definition of politics I've seen to date
[20:23] Emberzzz Mendelsohn: smiles at him
[20:23] Emberzzz Mendelsohn: smiles big.
[20:23] Cursa Charisma nods
[20:24] Allen Kerensky: @Emberzzz yeah, honoroary degrees bite anyway
[20:24] Emberzzz Mendelsohn: yes. They do they degrade everyone who works for oen
[20:24] Emberzzz Mendelsohn: *one.
[20:24] Allen Kerensky: then again TANSTAAFL always applies
[20:24] Cursa Charisma: OK, so I'm going to end the official transcript with Lucien agreeing to give next week's talk on RP Styles in SL
[20:24] Emberzzz Mendelsohn: They rob the pride and meaning of it.
[20:24] Allen Kerensky: There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
[20:24] Lucien Velinov: Alright, I'll do it.
[20:24] Cursa Charisma: Woo-hoo!
[20:24] Cursa Charisma: That was an acclamation
[20:24] Emberzzz Mendelsohn: yeye..!
[20:24] Cursa Charisma grins
[20:25] Lucien Velinov: Might as well put the note out in the notice lol
[20:25] Allen Kerensky: note to self: annontate the notecard with question marks

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