Saturday, January 16, 2010

Dec.6, 2009 Topic "Compelling RP Factors"

On December 6, 2009, Vooper Werribee gave a talk entitled, "What Factors make Online RP Compelling - What A Pro Has to Say"

Attending were:
Allen Kerensky
Baroun Tardis
Cursa Charisma
D3vil Boa
Eve Oppewall
Joan Vhargon
MistressBrazen Bondar
Pluto Kozlov
Reiko Soyinka
Simone06 Lian
Vooper Werribee

(transcript begins)
[15:07] Cursa Charisma: Hello, Eve, and welcome
[15:07] Eve Oppewall: Thanks Cursa
[15:07] Cursa Charisma: Vooper is just setting up his audiovisual display
[15:07] Cursa Charisma: We should be ready to begin very soon
[15:08] Cursa Charisma: We have film soundtracks on the audio stream, and recommend setting your viewer to Midnight for maximum enjoyment
[15:09] Vooper Werribee: OK... anyone still awake ?
[15:09] Cursa Charisma: Bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, as the furries say
[15:09] Baroun Tardis: Is there audio for this ? Should I turn on speaker?
[15:10] Vooper Werribee: no :)
[15:10] Cursa Charisma: Just epic soundtracks
[15:10] Cursa Charisma grins
[15:10] Vooper Werribee: sorry - that was confusing
[15:10] Vooper Werribee: So Cursa actually suggested a much snappier title for this talk
[15:11] Cursa Charisma grins
[15:11] Allen Kerensky: which was?
[15:11] Cursa Charisma: "Sex"
[15:11] Cursa Charisma: No, wait
[15:11] Cursa Charisma: That's another talk
[15:11] Cursa Charisma grins
[15:11] Vooper Werribee: "What Factors make Online RP Compelling? - What A Pro Has to Say"
[15:11] Cursa Charisma: Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to the RP Nexus
[15:12] Cursa Charisma: Today's event is a talk by Vooper Werribee, and you can see the title on the screen next to him here
[15:12] Cursa Charisma: As always, a transcript will be made of the talk and the open discussion afterward
[15:12] Vooper Werribee: One of a variety of titles, in fact :)
[15:12] Cursa Charisma nods
[15:13] Cursa Charisma: Without further ado, here's Vooper!
[15:13] Cursa Charisma applauds
[15:13] Vooper Werribee: The identity of the 'Pro' in Cursa's version should become apparent
[15:13] Cody Winterwolf accepted your inventory offer.
[15:13] Joelle Tardis smiles at Baroun and thinks that "Sex" might be a fun Topic
[15:14] Vooper Werribee: OK - I'm happy to take questions as we go along so if something occurs as I'm talking please feel free to interrupt
[15:14] Cursa Charisma nods
[15:14] Vooper Werribee: And Sex is *always* a fun topic! Joelle :) Although I'm sure I have the ability to make eventhat sound dull :)
[15:15] HTCS Meter V0.995: From Baroun Tardis:ooc: He's british...
[15:15] Vooper Werribee: One of the issues we've seen several times in the talks at NEXUS has been that the definition of 'Roleplaying' is not always clear.
[15:15] Vooper Werribee: So I'm going to add my own definition to the mix.
[15:15] Joelle Tardis smiles at Baroun
[15:16] Vooper Werribee: I'm not saying it is 'the one true' defintion - it's probably broader than most people feel comfortable with.
[15:16] Vooper Werribee: But it's the definition I'll be using for this presentation.
[15:16] Vooper Werribee: So, combining the two definitions on the slide we have something like: 'A social experience in which participants develop an identity outside of themselves and take part in storytelling and attempt to overcome game-like challenges'.
[15:16] Joelle Tardis wiggles back against Baroun, stretches and gets comfortable to listen
[15:17] Baroun Tardis puts an arm around Joelle
[15:17] Allen Kerensky: Q for later: so, its not RPing if you are simply yourself in an unreal situation - like me at the controls of a starship?
[15:17] Bletaverse Server: Image received. Visit to see your post.
[15:18] Vooper Werribee: I'll take that now - if you don't mind, Allen?
[15:18] Joelle Tardis grins at Allie and thinks it depends on which definition of RPing your useing
[15:18] Baroun Tardis nods to Allen - "Yeah, SL Baroun is pretty much indistinguishable from RL Baroun."
[15:18] Allen Kerensky: i don't mind, I only said for later so you could pace it in whenever worked for you
[15:18] Joelle Tardis: and that in reality its all RP
[15:18] Vooper Werribee: So the definition says developing an identity that is outside of yourself
[15:19] Vooper Werribee: Unless you are actually a pilot qualified to fly and interstellar scout ship in real life - then you *are* developing an identity outside yourself
[15:19] Vooper Werribee: granted - the *personailty* might be the same as your 'real' self
[15:19] Cursa Charisma: Welcome, Simone06
[15:20] Baroun Tardis shrugs...
[15:20] Simone06 Lian: Hello :)
[15:20] HTCS Meter V0.995: From Baroun Tardis:ooc: But.... I _am_ qualified to operate a Sierra!
[15:20] Allen Kerensky: okay, I see where you are drawing the line. makes sense. thanks
[15:20] Allen Kerensky: personality not equal role, as it were
[15:20] SimStream Radio (Cursa version 091109): Now playing movie soundtrack selections
[15:20] Cursa Charisma: Welcome D3vil
[15:20] Vooper Werribee: yep - that's how I'd see it anyway :
[15:21] HTCS Meter V0.995: From Joelle Tardis:ooc: Well I like being a Cult Leader, Never was one before SL, too bad there are so many of us....
[15:21] Vooper Werribee: OK - so this Jeffrey Steefel character is the 'Pro' in question i nthe subttile of the presnetation
[15:22] Cursa Charisma nods
[15:22] Vooper Werribee: Massively.cominterviewed a whole bunch of MMORPG developers and execs as the Games Developer Conference
[15:22] Vooper Werribee: They al lhad interesting stuff to say - but Jeffrey Steefel came up with this list of factors for a good game
[15:23] Vooper Werribee: By the way - for those who don't know MMORPG stands for Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game
[15:23] Vooper Werribee: yuk
[15:23] Cursa Charisma grins
[15:23] Vooper Werribee: usually used to refer to things like World of Warcraft
[15:23] Cursa Charisma nods
[15:24] Vooper Werribee: In the next slides we'll look at the factors and also see how they compare for the game Mr. Steefel helped release (Lord of The Rings Online – or LoTRO for short) and a typical roleplaying sim in Second Life.
[15:24] HTCS Meter V0.995: From Baroun Tardis:ooc: and the new game concerning competing dairy farmers/chees manufacturers =-== World of War Kraft
[15:24] Allen Kerensky: so, I assume the LotR game was successful?
[15:24] Cursa Charisma grins
[15:25] Vooper Werribee: Yes, not as much as World of Warcraft - but it's up there
[15:25] Allen Kerensky: okay, I've never played either game so, its good to know
[15:25] Vooper Werribee: Let me add a bit more definition to the list of factors.
[15:26] Vooper Werribee: (Please Note, this is my interpretation of what Mr Steefel intended, the interview gave no explicit definition of the factors.)
[15:26] Lucien Velinov accepted your inventory offer.
[15:26] Vooper Werribee: Persistence: the world remains online and inhabited by others even when you log off. It is also around week after week, year after year.
[15:26] Vooper Werribee: Sense of Place: players have a strong feeling they are inhabiting somewhere else - it may be a real place or imaginary. The virtual world gives enough cues that strongly suggest the place.
[15:26] Vooper Werribee: Sense of Purpose: players know what short-term and long-term goals they can expect to achieve and more or less what they need to do to achieve them.
[15:27] Vooper Werribee: Social Connectivity: the ability for players to easily find and contact others online who may be interested in joining and/or interacting with them.
[15:27] Vooper Werribee: Social Identity: the player's avatar and choices open to them give them a strong identity. In the best case the player has the ability to create a totally unique character.
[15:27] Vooper Werribee: Social Grouping: taking part in the roleplay experience makes one feel a valued part of a community - either a small team dedicated to achieving a short-term goal or the wider community who inhabit the 'world' and play the game.
[15:27] Vooper Werribee: Participatory Experience: players feel they 'have a part to play' that is more or less equal to everyone else in the game. In the best case players actions permanently 'shape' the world.
[15:27] Vooper Werribee: Storytelling: roleplaying is closely associated with telling a story. Sometimes players are the heroes (anti-heros) of their own story. Sometimes players work together to produce an interactively constructed plot. Sometimes it's a collection of small improvised excerpts which contribute to the overall theme of a grander story.
[15:28] Baroun Tardis: ok, that's pretty reasonable
[15:29] Allen Kerensky: i guess the actual "roles" from the term "roleplaying" would fit in social identity or grouping
[15:29] Allen Kerensky: maybe participatory
[15:29] Joelle Tardis nods
[15:29] Allen Kerensky: sounds reasonable to me
[15:29] Joelle Tardis: makes sense
[15:29] Vooper Werribee: Yeah - it gave me a feeling that this guy was not a typical online game exec and was really wanting to push online roleplaying games to a new direction
[15:29] Allen Kerensky: need to post that slide here in the Nexus
[15:30] Baroun Tardis: yeah, good slide
[15:30] Allen Kerensky: a traditional D&D table has all of that
[15:30] Cursa Charisma: With Vooper's permission, yes
[15:30] Joelle Tardis: actually sounds like pretty traditional on-line RP to me
[15:30] Joelle Tardis: The sense of Community
[15:30] Allen Kerensky: yeah, the universality of it sounds like a good distillation for any sort of RP, off or on line
[15:31] Baroun Tardis agrees with both Allen and Joelle - it's jus tmoving the RP to have graphics, sound and animation rather than pencil, paper, dice
[15:31] Vooper Werribee: I agree Joelle - which is waht made me pay attention - because this is fro ma person in charge of producing something similar to World of Warcraft
[15:32] Vooper Werribee: Ok - next slide ...
[15:32] Cursa Charisma nods
[15:33] Vooper Werribee: I took these factors and tried to do a comparison of Lord of The Rings Online (which I play occassionally) and a typical!!! (which I know doesn't exist) SL RP sim
[15:34] Allen Kerensky: can you explain how you arrived at the quantified values for things?
[15:34] Vooper Werribee: I made a rating (on a scale of 0-5) for Lord of The Rings Online as an example of an MMORPG for all of these factors and also rated a typical SL Roleplay experience.
[15:34] Vooper Werribee: These ratings are based purely on my subjective experience, there was no science involved :)
[15:34] Cursa Charisma nods
[15:34] Baroun Tardis: What was your source for "typical" ?
[15:34] Allen Kerensky: fair enough
[15:34] akasha Zelin accepted your inventory offer.
[15:34] Vooper Werribee: yes - good question, Baroun :)
[15:34] Baroun Tardis: Those SL numbers will vary wildly by sim and play-group
[15:34] Izzie Foxtrot accepted your inventory offer.
[15:35] Joelle Tardis: and Genre
[15:35] Joelle Tardis nods
[15:35] Cursa Charisma: And phase of the moon
[15:35] Baroun Tardis nods to Cursa
[15:35] Allen Kerensky: will hold comment on the specific numbers until after you step through your explains for them
[15:35] Vooper Werribee: the SL ratings are based on my expereince of RP in Splintered Rock mostly
[15:35] Joelle Tardis: Yes, Time of the Month does affect
[15:35] Vooper Werribee: But that sim has gone through several evolutions
[15:35] Cursa Charisma grins
[15:35] Joelle Tardis grins at CUrsa
[15:35] Allen Kerensky: so can we assume the numbers represent SR (roundly speaking?)
[15:36] Vooper Werribee: Yes -I'll give some justification for my ratinngs on the following slides
[15:36] Allen Kerensky: sweet
[15:36] Vooper Werribee: Yes - they represent my expereince of SR and the Dune RP sim before it - right from three years ago when it first all started
[15:37] Allen Kerensky: yeah I assumed so, from the storytelling number
[15:37] Vooper Werribee: hehe
[15:37] Allen Kerensky: gestalten view
[15:37] Vooper Werribee: yeah - I probably erred o nthe side of the earlier days of Splintered Rock
[15:37] Allen Kerensky: yes we all know trident screwed up SR-that-was - given
[15:38] Joelle Tardis: Quality RP Needs Interaction usually, anything that reduces interaction lowers RP Quality I belive
[15:38] Cursa Charisma: You are correct, Allen; *you* all know about that
[15:38] Cursa Charisma winks
[15:39] Baroun Tardis: and the numbers will Shift - I've been to sims where the "Sense of Place" was so strong that I was incredibly homesick.
[15:39] Vooper Werribee: OK - let me give the justification for the LoTRO ratings
[15:39] Baroun Tardis: and I've been to sims where the '1" ont he chart is too high
[15:39] Cursa Charisma nods
[15:39] Vooper Werribee: grins
[15:39] Vooper Werribee: let's not name any name!!! :)
[15:39] SimStream Radio (Cursa version 091109): Now playing film and game soundtracks
[15:39] SimStream Radio (Cursa version 091109): Now playing hot salsa selections
[15:39] Vooper Werribee: Some justification for the scores for Lord of The Rings Online.
[15:40] Vooper Werribee: Scores well on 'Persistance' because it is a commercial product. It's servers are up 24/7 and the game world has been accessible for over 2 years now and probably will be accessible for several years more.
[15:40] Vooper Werribee: LoTRO can capitalise on the widely known ‘background’ of franchise it is based on. - so good sense of place
[15:40] Vooper Werribee: As a standard MMORPG it offers a 'structured' play experience - a series of quests are undertaken.
[15:40] Cursa Charisma: And harvesting and crafting
[15:41] Cursa Charisma: My brother farmed strawberries in The Shire for a time
[15:41] Joelle Tardis: and Social Interaction
[15:41] Joelle Tardis: and basic rules of behavior
[15:41] Vooper Werribee: players always kno what their short term goals are - and thei long term goal .. .well - get to level 65 :) or whatever the highest level is
[15:41] Cursa Charisma nods
[15:41] Vooper Werribee: It has a good set of tools which you can use to find other players who are online and doing the same quests as you.
[15:42] Vooper Werribee: so scores well on Connectivity
[15:42] Vooper Werribee: The avatars are not very customisable. One avatar of a certain class or race looks very similar to another.
[15:42] Vooper Werribee: Players interact with each other mainly by working together on quests.
[15:43] Vooper Werribee: so yeah ... there is social grouping but it's not really much of a social interaction
[15:43] Baroun Tardis: Grouping for a task
[15:43] Vooper Werribee: Player participation is really only further possible by joining a guild and organising/taking part in guild activities.
[15:43] Vooper Werribee: And finally Lord of The Rings Online is better at storytelling than most MMORPGs. The quests often have a ‘literary’ feel to them.
[15:43] Cursa Charisma nods
[15:43] Baroun Tardis: Kinda like RL , there though - peolpe join companies and work together
[15:44] Allen Kerensky: and a LotR game better have a literary feel sheesh
[15:44] Joelle Tardis: Yes
[15:44] Allen Kerensky: its not like they don't have decent base material to crib from
[15:44] Vooper Werribee: Ok - and now the justifications for the rating of (my expereince) of SL RP
[15:44] Vooper Werribee: hehe! Good point Allen :)
[15:45] Vooper Werribee: A roleplaying sim is usually owned by an individual who may well lose interest in developing it or the ability to fund it.
[15:45] Cursa Charisma nods
[15:45] Vooper Werribee: So I scored SL quite low on persistence
[15:45] Allen Kerensky: not much different than a corporation's "its just not profitable" or "contracts over turn off the lights" tho
[15:46] Allen Kerensky: SL takes a hit on availability more than any other thing
[15:46] Vooper Werribee: even tho the grid is stable enough these days to be available 24/7 - 365 (give or take)
[15:46] Allen Kerensky coughs and sputters.
[15:46] Vooper Werribee: :D
[15:46] Vooper Werribee: It is often difficult to provide a sense of place with the small plots of land that are realistically affordable.
[15:47] Allen Kerensky: nod
[15:47] Vooper Werribee: So I scored SL low there -although as Baroun pointed out - there's a lot of variability - and it is possible to find places with a tremendous sense of place
[15:47] Cursa Charisma nods
[15:47] Allen Kerensky: *cough* Avalon * cough*
[15:47] Vooper Werribee: Owner usually has some influence over the ‘look’ and ‘feel’ but it is also difficult to control ‘look’ of other avatars and their objects.
[15:48] Cursa Charisma nods
[15:48] Cursa Charisma: To put it mildly
[15:48] Vooper Werribee: That's another reason why I think Sense of Place is low
[15:48] Baroun Tardis: It's handleable
[15:48] Allen Kerensky: scratch out difficult and put "damn near impossible"
[15:48] Vooper Werribee: :D
[15:48] Baroun Tardis: but like any other project, it needs a team and commitment
[15:48] SimStream Radio (Cursa version 091109): Now playing movie soundtrack selections
[15:48] Baroun Tardis: Have yet to see a Flying Penis in a Gor Sim that lasts more than 5 minutes
[15:49] Vooper Werribee: yeah - Linden Lab don't really give landowners the tools they need to make visitors conform to a sense of place
[15:49] Cursa Charisma refrains from comment
[15:49] Baroun Tardis: Sure, tey do: "Ban"
[15:49] Cursa Charisma: Later, I'd like to explore this question further
[15:49] Vooper Werribee: yes - I think it's a good point for discussion - let's come back to it
[15:50] Vooper Werribee: Little 'stuctured play' with clear short term goals in most SL RP sims
[15:50] Cursa Charisma nods
[15:51] Vooper Werribee: Ceratinly on the original Dune sim - the choice of what you could do and what you could be was so huge that it left people wondering what to actually do
[15:51] Baroun Tardis: We run events, or have contests
[15:51] Baroun Tardis: or have plots that people build
[15:51] Vooper Werribee: yep - your mileage almost certainly will vary
[15:51] Baroun Tardis: "Cookie"
[15:52] Vooper Werribee: I scored social connectivity low because Often small number of players means that it is difficult to get a few people online together. However, the community often becomes very close - almost like a 'guild' in MMORPGs.
[15:52] Vooper Werribee: Ok Social Identity - that's where SL excels: Avatars in SL are unique - it would actually be quite a challenge to try and make your avatar look like someone else’s.
[15:53] Vooper Werribee: Social Grouping: Forming a community within SL is hard work - almost always need to go outside SL to make use of other collaboration/community workspaces.
[15:53] Cursa Charisma raises an eyebrow
[15:53] Vooper Werribee: ...or some nifty self-scripted tools
[15:53] Allen Kerensky: thanks LL for such broken tools like group proposals
[15:54] Vooper Werribee: Participation: While the potential for participation in SL is almost infinite it quite often is unequal
[15:55] Allen Kerensky: drastically so
[15:55] Vooper Werribee: That's good in some ways - in that the players who have the time and enthusiasm can 'run with it'
[15:55] Allen Kerensky: ... or leaves folks out in the cold time and time again
[15:55] Vooper Werribee: But also has it's dangers because I think it's very easy for new playes or those with less time or less knowledge of the background to feel excluded
[15:56] Allen Kerensky: or just plain hard to get started in an existing community
[15:56] Vooper Werribee: so although SL RP at it's best should score 5 - that danger of unequal participation made me give a lower score
[15:56] Joelle Tardis shrugs
[15:56] Vooper Werribee: And finally Storytelling: Due to the fact that everything can be customised, SL is like a film set just waiting for a story (interactive or otherwise) to be told.
[15:57] Joelle Tardis: my expierence has been those who truly want to get involved usually do
[15:57] Baroun Tardis: It's a matter of player commitment - there's no Dev Team there to hold their hand and walk them along
[15:57] Allen Kerensky: i was thinking back to the time I tried to start as a spice driver with a House
[15:58] Vooper Werribee: I agree with you Joelle - committed Roelplayers will muddle thru and get to the driving seat sooner or later
[15:58] Vooper Werribee: but it would be great if Roleplaying was as widely accepted an entertainment format as playing World of Warcraft
[15:59] Vooper Werribee: and for that lower barriers to participation are needed than exist at the moemnt , I think
[15:59] Baroun Tardis: Automated quests, easy way to find sims playing the genre you're playing in, and a grid-wide way of hooking up with players in guild-type mode...
[16:00] Vooper Werribee: Yes, Baroun - you bring me nicely onto the final slide :)
[16:00] Vooper Werribee feels a palpable sihg of releif fro mthe audience atthe mention of final slide
[16:00] Allen Kerensky: guild-type = spaceship crews - why I see a lot of spaceship RPs happening from Star Trek, Star Wars, and Firefly - a singel ship and crew is a roleplay group in a box
[16:01] Cursa Charisma nods
[16:01] Joelle Tardis nods and is dependent on lots of Good Communication
[16:01] Baroun Tardis nods to Allen
[16:01] Vooper Werribee: It's clear from the chart that the ratings of the MMORPG and SL RP sim are complementary.
[16:01] Joelle Tardis: Good Communication being one of the keys to quality RP Enviroments at least in SL
[16:01] Vooper Werribee: The MMORPG does the 'world creation' and 'structured play experience' well and SL excels at 'character creation' and 'storytelling'.
[16:02] Baroun Tardis: Good Communication being one of thekeys to quality 1st Life
[16:02] Vooper Werribee: I present some ‘tips’ for integrating some of the strength of MMORPGs into SL while still maintaining the strength of RP in SL.
[16:02] Vooper Werribee: All untried and untested and without warrenty :)
[16:02] Allen Kerensky: well, you do have a test environment to try them all on
[16:03] Vooper Werribee: I'll probably be trying at least of of these ideas on Splintered Rock
[16:03] Vooper Werribee: Sorry folks I just have to relog to reboot the modem at home :)
[16:03] Cursa Charisma: Alright, Vooper
[16:04] Vooper Werribee: Cursa - I think your point for discussion was great - I'll hop back in on the discussion in a couple of minutes :)
[16:04] Cursa Charisma: We'll say then that this concludes the "talk" portion of the event, and the "open discussion" can begin
[16:04] Vooper Werribee gave you Online RP Factors Slide2.
[16:05] Cursa Charisma: And for everyone's information, Vooper has just left me a copy of his slides, so I will plan to put up the list of important elements in a dispenser here
[16:05] Baroun Tardis: Keen.... Nice talk on Vooper's part, really a good presentation.
[16:05] Cursa Charisma nods
[16:06] Cursa Charisma: Well, no need to be polite and wait for Vooper to return
[16:06] Cursa Charisma grins
[16:06] Joan Vhargon: Yes, But I think he was being a little hard on SL. There are many things that are just human nature and not the fault of a system.
[16:06] Cursa Charisma: Yes
[16:06] Baroun Tardis: Agree
[16:07] Joan Vhargon: I will restate when he re "poofs"
[16:07] Baroun Tardis: Most sims I've played in don't have a lot of trouble with non-genre visitors
[16:07] Cursa Charisma: But one major difference is that an MMO, if it gets online, has millions of dollars and hordes of paid staff, who have put in years of concerted effort
[16:07] Cursa Charisma: wb, Vooper
[16:07] Baroun Tardis: I fyou land in a sim, there's big signs that say, "This is where you are, if you want to play here you need to _play_", then folks generally get a clue
[16:07] Cursa Charisma: In SL, anyone can just announce, "This is my RP"
[16:08] Cursa Charisma: So, with SL, it's easy come, but also easy go, as Vooper mentioned
[16:08] Baroun Tardis wishes for tens of thousands of dollars and dozens of staff.....
[16:09] Baroun Tardis: And, in SL, "Structured Play" leads to "Meters"
[16:09] Baroun Tardis shrugs
[16:09] Cursa Charisma: Vooper, while you were gone, everyone expressed appreciation for your gathering and organizing these points
[16:09] Allen Kerensky: good brain food, yes
[16:09] Allen Kerensky: now, how to turn it into L$ from sims full of fun happy players
[16:09] Vooper Werribee: It was my pleasure - and only right that I should contribute something as I've enjoyed everyone else's talks
[16:10] Cursa Charisma: Well, Allen, if profit is your goal, SL is a tough place to seek it
[16:10] Cursa Charisma: If sustainability is what you're after, there are options
[16:10] Allen Kerensky: reaosnable or not, its always worth trying for
[16:10] Allen Kerensky: read my profile - dream as big as you can =)
[16:10] Allen smiles.
[16:11] Baroun Tardis: "Reallity is malleable - pound on it hard enough, it'll bend"
[16:11] Joan Vhargon: /claps for Vooper
[16:11] Vooper Werribee: Did we talk about the difficulties of establishing 'sense of place' when the tools to control others appearnce don't really exist
[16:12] Cursa Charisma: That's an important point
[16:12] Vooper Werribee: well apart from a big eraser in the form of a ban button :) as Baroun pointed out
[16:12] Cursa Charisma: There are things owners/managers can do
[16:12] Baroun Tardis: It's not that hard - no worse than a resteraunt with a dress code
[16:12] Cursa Charisma: But there is one thing LL needs to do
[16:12] Baroun Tardis: "Sir, you need to either wear a tie or leave."
[16:12] Allen Kerensky: except for Restrained Life - you can force specific clothes and equipmetn onto an avatar with that
[16:12] Cursa Charisma: Parcel managers need the power to turn off avatar names and group tags
[16:12] Baroun Tardis: Why?
[16:13] Cursa Charisma: Floaty text with info that only contributes to metagaming is not helpful to an RP environment, imo
[16:13] Baroun Tardis: Folks like me that forget names like having names over peple's head.... would be nice if RL did that
[16:13] Cursa Charisma grins
[16:13] Allen Kerensky: well, if I could change mine at whim, yes
[16:13] Allen Kerensky: mostly I just have to switch with titlers and the like
[16:14] Allen Kerensky: and some creatures and robots don't have names that are even allowed by LL input standards when you sign up
[16:14] Cursa Charisma: But I think we have discussed before that if you have enough space, you can make separate parcels, and limit entry to your hardcore area to group members
[16:14] Vooper Werribee gave you Online RP Factors Slide8.
[16:14] Allen Kerensky: can't RP anything but a named K'zinti in SL terms lol
[16:15] SimStream Radio (Cursa version 091109): Now playing flamenco and classical guitar
[16:15] Allen Kerensky: SL is great toolbox for creating RP stuff up to a point may be the basic idea - and we can all wish it allowed more
[16:15] Allen Kerensky: but, in golf terms, you just have to play it as it lays
[16:15] Cursa Charisma: Tiger Woods' motto?
[16:15] Baroun Tardis: Well... OpenSim and the new HTCS Viewer (snort/laugh)
[16:15] Allen Kerensky: so, Voop's scoring does make sens
[16:16] Allen Kerensky: i'd be curious to see what happened for an RP sim that used Restrained Life to actually control the viewers more strictle
[16:16] Cursa Charisma nods
[16:16] Allen Kerensky: turn off minimaps and force specific costumes and such
[16:16] Allen Kerensky: prevent TPs and flying for real
[16:16] Cursa Charisma: Yes, Allen
[16:17] Cursa Charisma: That would be very good to see tested
[16:17] Allen Kerensky: but, I don't have the cash to do that myself
[16:17] Cursa Charisma grins
[16:17] Allen Kerensky: so, I can only wonder
[16:17] Cursa Charisma: Pole dancing, Allen
[16:17] Allen Kerensky: no, I've done that
[16:17] Allen Kerensky: wait.. what do you mean?
[16:17] Cursa Charisma laughs
[16:17] Cursa Charisma: I mean to get the cash
[16:18] Allen Kerensky: hah, people *might* pay me to get OFF the stage
[16:18] Allen Kerensky: never to get *on* it
[16:18] Allen Kerensky: Vooper - I am curious about a bullet on your slide
[16:18] Cursa Charisma: And I was just going to ask Baroun a question
[16:18] Allen Kerensky: "manage player participation and expectations"
[16:19] Allen Kerensky: are you scared yet, Voop?
[16:19] Vooper Werribee: Actually, I'd never considered that a lot of the tools to control 'sense of place' could be implemented at the viewer level
[16:19] Allen Kerensky: and for the record - I just got paid to stay off the pole dancing by an anonymous donor - your sanity is safe
[16:19] Vooper Werribee: That opens up a lot of possibilities for a Roleplay Viewer
[16:19] Joelle Tardis laughs
[16:19] Cursa Charisma: But my Mythos isn't going up
[16:20] Vooper Werribee: oh - Allen - yep - the slide point
[16:20] Vooper Werribee: "manage player participation and expectations"
[16:20] Allen Kerensky: how do you think SL sims could "manage" player participation and expectations? is this through marketing and classes?
[16:21] Vooper Werribee: yeah - I think classes was what I had in mind
[16:21] Cursa Charisma: wb, Baroun
[16:21] Vooper Werribee: I was thinking about how people who've never RPed before can find it really tough to 'get into' the RP on a new sim
[16:21] Allen Kerensky: i'd like to see a followup to this where each bullet on that last slide was expanded
[16:21] Vooper Werribee: and classes can give them confidence to step up and interact with the 'old guard'
[16:22] Joelle Tardis: Most Really active RP SIms have Classes, on everything from Basic RP to things spefic to the Genre
[16:22] Cursa Charisma: Minigames and quests are the way to hook them when you don't have welcome personnel on hand
[16:22] Allen Kerensky: and do you see that as the role of the faction head or sim-general staff?
[16:22] Allen Kerensky: for example
[16:22] Joelle Tardis: and a combination of Both I have found is rather effective
[16:23] Vooper Werribee: I think it's good to have someone doing it ... I don't think it really makes much difference *who* actually does it
[16:23] Cursa Charisma: Really?
[16:23] Vooper Werribee: or what their standing is i nthe sim heirarchy
[16:23] Cursa Charisma: Ah
[16:23] Allen Kerensky: the main one I am familiar with is the Starfleet Academy stuff - you do classes and assist in RPs until you get to a certain "rating" and can join a bridge crew
[16:24] HTCS Meter V0.995: From Baroun Tardis:ooc: Tuesday night , 5PM, Kira's World
[16:24] Vooper Werribee: Oh I see - you're talking about having the RP classes integrated as part of the RP as it were
[16:24] Baroun Tardis: Yeah, that's the more fun way
[16:24] Allen Kerensky: but, that puts us smack into the "Levels and XP" disagreement we agreed never to talk about
[16:24] Allen Kerensky: how to measure IC progress
[16:24] Baroun Tardis: Your "persona" needs to learn the stuff at some point in their life
[16:25] Cursa Charisma: We are hoping very soon to receive a talk from Varahi Lusch
[16:25] Cursa Charisma: She conducts wonderful classes
[16:25] Cursa Charisma: They are not presented at tutorials, but they are
[16:25] Joelle Tardis smiles
[16:25] Cursa Charisma: They are done ic and are a lot o ffun
[16:25] Vooper Werribee: Yes -I'm consistently surprised at how much roleplay games (especially the online sort) cling on tightly to Mr Gygax's invention: the experience point
[16:25] Cursa Charisma makes sign against Evil Eye
[16:25] Allen Kerensky: people like scores
[16:25] Baroun Tardis: Not a lot of other methods out there
[16:25] Allen Kerensky: which is why all video games and pinball machines came witht hem
[16:26] Vooper Werribee: when even i nthe 90's the second heyday of pen and paper RPGs many of them had abandoned levbels and xp
[16:26] Joelle Tardis: One of the Good things that SL has and is Used a Lot for Educational Classes on RP and Genre Spefic RP is Groups
[16:26] Vooper Werribee: I disagree Baroun
[16:26] Vooper Werribee: Runequest was a very early game
[16:26] Vooper Werribee: it threw xp out of the window
[16:26] Baroun Tardis: oh?
[16:26] Vooper Werribee: you progressed by doing
[16:26] Allen Kerensky: and pregress was measured relative to other things how?
[16:26] Baroun Tardis: and was there a counter of some sort that measured your doing?
[16:26] Vooper Werribee: the more you tried a skill - the better (more or less) you got at it
[16:27] Allen Kerensky: better rated how?
[16:27] Joan Vhargon: It tapped into that sense of accoplishment we all crave.
[16:27] Baroun Tardis: so you counted XP on a skill-by-skill bases
[16:27] Baroun Tardis: basis
[16:27] Baroun Tardis shrugs
[16:27] Allen Kerensky: so, skill levels rather than XP levels - still levels?
[16:27] Joan Vhargon: accomplishment
[16:27] Vooper Werribee: all skills were rated as percent chance of success
[16:27] Vooper Werribee: it's the system Call of Cthulu uses too
[16:27] Baroun Tardis: which is another way of saying "level"
[16:27] Allen Kerensky: and some how you improved your percents
[16:27] Joan Vhargon: I was saying when you were gone that I think he was being a little hard on SL. There are many things that are just human nature and not the fault of a system. This is a microcosm of our culture with some parts missing and other parts on steroids. But some things can never be "handled" by a system, especially when you are talking about personal interaction. A successful system will have to turn those deficiencies into assets.
[16:27] Cursa Charisma: Baroun, I believe the distinction is between specific measures and the global "ball of hit points, ball of xp"
[16:27] Allen Kerensky: I can look in CoC then
[16:28] Vooper Werribee: yep - when ever you successfully used a skill you had a chance to improve it in downtime between play sessions
[16:28] Allen Kerensky: I didn't know its the same system
[16:28] Baroun Tardis nods to Cursa - "yeah, but you're still couting points and getting bennies"
[16:28] Allen Kerensky: haven't looked at CoC in 15+ years
[16:28] Cursa Charisma: Yes, Joan
[16:28] Allen Kerensky: can dig it out and refresh, thanks
[16:28] Cursa Charisma: If you look at it, Allen, you'll lose 1d3 SAN
[16:28] Joan Vhargon: Sorry. I thought I found a hole in the conversation and jumped too soon.
[16:28] Allen Kerensky: so, that was my core thing in SR - how to measure progresss as a spice miner in SR?
[16:28] Baroun Tardis laughs at Cursa's joke
[16:28] Vooper Werribee: hehe
[16:28] Joelle Tardis: Indeed
[16:28] Allen Kerensky: I went SAN0 when I had kids
[16:28] Vooper Werribee: I'm just reading your comment Joan
[16:28] Cursa Charisma laughs
[16:29] Allen Kerensky: Joan's comment is spot on by the way
[16:29] Baroun Tardis is staggered by Allen's excellent reply
[16:29] Vooper Werribee: and yes, SL is really much more of a social interaction tool than an game system
[16:29] Allen Kerensky: especially if you can leverage the problems as assets by working around them and improving player experience by doing so
[16:29] Joan Vhargon: Most of the things we are trying to deal with here are the same behaviors teachers deal with in their early childhood classes.
[16:30] Joan Vhargon: How to socialize our kids.
[16:30] Cursa Charisma: On Joan's point, yes! What is necessary is to understand the limitations of the infrastructure and the pecadilloes of the players, and build structures to take advantage of them
[16:30] Vooper Werribee: and to try and bash it into the hole that says RPG is to lose some of it's strength
[16:31] Allen Kerensky: well... I just want a role, and the chance to play it
[16:31] Allen Kerensky: the rest is semantics
[16:31] Allen Kerensky: but yes, it does sound like some "early socialization" notes might apply to getting SL players working together
[16:31] Cursa Charisma: A specific example: if you want a nice pure area for your hardcore rp, but also want a flexible easy to enter area for noobs, you need to cook up an ic fig leaf to explain the "strange zone"
[16:31] Joan Vhargon: Most new players need to be socialized into the new social system of the "game" . You were talking about that as a deficiency of SL but it;s a deficiency in us not the system.
[16:31] Cursa Charisma nods
[16:32] Vooper Werribee: hehe - Joan, I think you just got yourself the subject of a talk :)
[16:32] Allen Kerensky: nods
[16:32] Cursa Charisma applauds
[16:32] Cursa Charisma: Excellent!
[16:32] Allen Kerensky: an RP class for all players, really
[16:32] Cursa Charisma: When can we pencil you in for, Joan?
[16:32] Allen Kerensky: "how to bring new players into the fold"
[16:32] Baroun Tardis: "How to bring new players into the fold, and not spindle or mutiliate"
[16:32] Cursa Charisma grins
[16:32] Joan Vhargon: I'm one of those obnoxious teachers that asks questions and tells the students to go figure it out.
[16:33] Cursa Charisma laughs
[16:33] Cursa Charisma: Fine
[16:33] Allen Kerensky: but guess who has a shiny new sim to figure it out FOR
[16:33] Cursa Charisma: Asking the right questions is most of what it's all about
[16:33] Allen Kerensky: lol
[16:33] Baroun Tardis just holds up a hand, then looks Buddah-like into the distance
[16:33] Baroun Tardis: "my best teaching method"
[16:34] Joan Vhargon: is?
[16:35] Cursa Charisma: Careful, this parcel is only rated Mature
[16:35] Cursa Charisma grins
[16:35] Allen Kerensky: the holding up hand and looking wise was his method
[16:35] Baroun Tardis: Well, that's been one of the recurring questions - "How to attract, catch, and domesticate feral avatars, turning them into Excellent RP-ers"
[16:35] Cursa Charisma nods
[16:35] Allen Kerensky: Caging the Wiley Avatar?
[16:35] Baroun Tardis looks at Joan, and nods
[16:35] Allen Kerensky: now I want to make an alt called Wile.E.
[16:36] Allen Kerensky: Voop - do you have notes for those Conclusions that could do a followup on?
[16:37] Vooper Werribee: You mean to go deeper into the conclusion - and give some more practical tips?
[16:37] Allen Kerensky: yeah
[16:37] Allen Kerensky: make each bullet into its own page
[16:37] Vooper Werribee: actually I don't :(
[16:38] Baroun Tardis: darn
[16:38] Vooper Werribee: I have to confess I was sort of shooting fro mthe hip at that point
[16:38] Joan Vhargon: One more comment. I type slow.
[16:38] Allen Kerensky: ah okay, I thought you had some from the phrasing "to get a taste, SL sims can: "
[16:38] Vooper Werribee: and I'd feel much better giving people advise that I'd tried myself first :)
[16:39] Allen Kerensky: well, bullet 1 sounds like HTCS quests *evilgrin* ... I do remember suggesting to design and build those around
[16:39] Allen Kerensky: might be a good start on stuff to try
[16:39] Joan Vhargon: We need to do homework. The boring kind that we all hate to do. Read up on some social science research on group dynamics. I took one class in grad school and that was a long time ago.
[16:39] Vooper Werribee: Yeah - you just made me think of another point tho - I think this guy Jeffrey Steeful was also trying to imagine what the next generation online Roleplay game will be like
[16:40] FreeView Flatscreen TV for Nexus: Picture will change every 30 seconds.
[16:40] Allen Kerensky: hmmm
[16:40] Vooper Werribee: And I was trying to imagine what a SL sim would be like that did try and combine the strength of MMORPGs and SL
[16:40] Allen Kerensky: no reason not to do all that now
[16:41] Baroun Tardis: Mroe than clases on group dynamics -- Leadership. Business.Sales. Marketing.... Dare I say, building a cult of personality tends to work in SL
[16:41] Vooper Werribee: My imagine took me to this sim where you roll up and have a lot of formalised character generation stuff laid out for you
[16:41] Cursa Charisma: Well, by default, it usually ends up being a cult of personality, yes
[16:42] Vooper Werribee: so your not left thinking 'how do Istart'
[16:42] Joan Vhargon: I'll re read my copy of Organizations, Structures, processes and outcomes and will give a talk.
[16:42] Frog Hoppers and Satins Friends Group Notice: Satin and Erin live today at 5pm
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Dress casual
[16:42] Vooper Werribee: but at the same time the char gen thing is not all stats and numbers
[16:42] You decline 'Innovation Info Island - New Orl, Innovation Infoisland (190, 5' ( ) from Frog Hoppers and Satins Friends Group Notice.
[16:42] Vooper Werribee: it's stuff like your family back ground
[16:42] Baroun Tardis: yeah, the formalized CharGen actually is a good thing - it gives people more of a mental image , and more emotional buy in
[16:42] Vooper Werribee: past history
[16:42] Vooper Werribee: like those books you lent me 'evaluation copies' of Allen
[16:43] Cursa Charisma: But as with PnP games, it's a big hurdle for new and casual players
[16:43] Allen Kerensky: oh gads
[16:43] Allen Kerensky: can I sprays some cold water around
[16:43] Cursa Charisma: CoC for all its virtues didn't get played as often as it should have
[16:43] Vooper Werribee: somethin that is much more social and would appeal to the SL crowd
[16:43] Cursa Charisma: We'd use up all our time making chars
[16:43] Allen Kerensky: I played a game called Baldurs Gate and another called NeverWinter Nights
[16:43] Cursa Charisma nods
[16:43] Allen Kerensky: they had elaborate rollups... and you got utterly forgettable characters
[16:44] Cursa Charisma: Based too much on D&D
[16:44] Joelle Tardis remembers Baldours Gate and Laughs
[16:44] Allen Kerensky: i can't even remember the name of a single one
[16:44] Cursa Charisma: For its own sake
[16:44] Allen Kerensky: I remember the names of most of the D&D characters I made
[16:44] Allen Kerensky: I dunno what it was
[16:44] Allen Kerensky: but those character generators where you spent time picking tattoos and crap - utterly forgettable.
[16:44] Cursa Charisma: Did you play the premade campaigns, Allen? It's *those* that were forgettable
[16:45] Allen Kerensky: that too
[16:45] Cursa Charisma: I played in persistent worlds made by real people, and remember my characters very well
[16:45] Cursa Charisma: Because I RPed with people
[16:45] Cursa Charisma grins
[16:45] Vooper Werribee: I'm thinking about those books I got from you that were all tables of family history and events that happened in the characters life
[16:45] Baroun Tardis: people make all the difference
[16:45] Allen Kerensky: my first thief in D&D was Ildor Inglorion, rolled up in 1979, and still on a sheet here somewhere in my study
[16:46] Cursa Charisma: NPCs and single-players activities are great hooks, even bricks, but personal interaction is the mortar
[16:46] Allen Kerensky: my first fighter was Statin Mozarch and he's in a folder in arms reach right now
[16:46] Cursa Charisma would accuse Allen of being a freak if he weren't in a similar position
[16:46] Cursa Charisma: hehe
[16:46] Vooper Werribee: :D
[16:47] Allen Kerensky: I *solved* both baldur's gate and the first neverwinter - can't remember a thing about them
[16:47] Allen Kerensky: so, the premade character stuff ... could get dicey
[16:47] Cursa Charisma: Again, single-player experience is not role-playing, imo
[16:47] Cursa Charisma: Not sufficient
[16:47] Allen Kerensky: well, Baldur's Gate on Playstation was multiplayer
[16:47] Cursa Charisma: But you couldn't play the bad guys or the NPCs
[16:47] Allen Kerensky: NeverWinter had some LAN capability too
[16:47] Baroun Tardis: and the PC version
[16:48] Cursa Charisma: Neverwinter (by Bioware) was revolutionary because you could make your own world
[16:48] Allen Kerensky: and I wish SL had the Aurora kit IN it
[16:48] Cursa Charisma nods
[16:48] Allen Kerensky: but wishing for SL features is pointless
[16:48] Cursa Charisma: Make it, Allen - you *could* put together something even more powerful
[16:48] Allen Kerensky: make due, or make off, or make out...but never make new
[16:48] Cursa Charisma grins
[16:49] Baroun Tardis: Heh, Allen - make the feature
[16:49] Allen Kerensky: i can't read Linden C++ - it literally makes my eyes vomit
[16:49] Cursa Charisma: Bioware's version wasn't much different, hehe
[16:49] Joelle Tardis laughs
[16:49] Allen Kerensky: mostly they barf up tons of double-colons (::)
[16:49] Cursa Charisma grins
[16:50] Cursa Charisma: As you may have already noticed, Vooper
[16:50] Baroun Tardis: Best line from a fellow programmer, years ago: "I could eat a box of green-bar and vomit better software" ....
[16:50] Cursa Charisma: 's slides are now on a loop behind me here
[16:51] Vooper Werribee: thanks :) I'm immortalised at RP NEXUS at last! Life is now complete :)
[16:51] Allen Kerensky: no its not - finish SR
[16:51] Cursa Charisma: After our vomit-spattered discussion concludes, the transcript will be put in as well
[16:51] Allen Kerensky: then kick off
[16:52] Joelle Tardis snorts and is quite Happy to be imortalized as little as possible any where
[16:52] Baroun Tardis: Well, speaking of kicking off -- I've got a ton of stuff I need to get done tonight....
[16:52] Cursa Charisma: As usual, our one-hour event has run for two
[16:52] Baroun Tardis: if ya'll will excuse me, I gotta go figure out why a couple people out of dozens are making pre-programmed adventures vomit
[16:52] Cursa Charisma: Thank you all for attending
[16:53] Allen Kerensky: thanks Vooper!
[16:53] Cursa Charisma: Let us express our appreciation to Vooper
[16:53] Allen Kerensky: thanks Cursa!
[16:53] Cursa Charisma: Excellent!
[16:53] Cursa Charisma applauds
[16:53] Joelle Tardis claps
[16:53] Baroun Tardis: Thank you, Vooper, for a most enjoyable talk!
[16:53] Vooper Werribee: Thanks folk - it's nice to catch up with you all again
[16:53] Cursa Charisma: Joan, I hope you will consider giving a talk
[16:53] Joelle Tardis: ((Dinner time Now))
[16:53] Joan Vhargon: Thank you all. /Claps
[16:53] Joelle Tardis: Yes, A Talk from Joan sounds like a Great Idea
[16:53] Cursa Charisma: And let me know of topics or speakers you'd like to hear here
[16:53] Joan Vhargon: I offered. You all just missed it.
[16:54] Allen Kerensky: we did not miss it
[16:54] Allen Kerensky: Cursa asked when
[16:54] Allen Kerensky: lol
[16:54] Baroun Tardis: We're looking forward to ti
[16:54] Cursa Charisma grins
[16:54] Cursa Charisma: Also, some people are having trouble with the Sunday times. If you have another day and time you'd like, let's hold a talk then
[16:54] Joan Vhargon: You were all talking about games from the 1970's I was having flashbacks of wearing a plaid skirt and yellow top of my school uniform.
[16:55] Joan Vhargon: /shiver
[16:55] Baroun Tardis blinks
[16:55] Cursa Charisma refrains from expressing interest in uniformed schoolgirls
[16:55] Joelle Tardis grins
[16:55] Allen Kerensky: must. not. comment.
[16:55] Allen Kerensky: damn you Cursa
[16:55] Baroun Tardis: Ok, when the conversation turns to schoolgirl uniforms, time to run
[16:55] Cursa Charisma laughs
[16:55] Joelle Tardis: Down Allen
[16:55] Baroun Tardis says, "Upaan"
[16:55] Baroun Tardis: (("Goodbye" in Vilani))
[16:55] Joan Vhargon: not sexy at all.
[16:55] Cursa Charisma: And you don't live in Japan!
[16:55] Joelle Tardis reaches over and wipes the drool away
[16:55] Allen Kerensky: exaclty
[16:55] Allen Kerensky: time to run
[16:55] Vooper Werribee: Ah - don't go Baroun
[16:55] Allen Kerensky: except - I was GOING to run to Al Raqis
[16:55] Vooper Werribee: I wanted to ask you how HTCS is coming along?
[16:56] Allen Kerensky: stupendously
[16:56] Cursa Charisma: Joelle can testify that Baroun is not rushing off to ""
[16:56] Joelle Tardis looks at Baroun,and smiles
(transcript ends)

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