Saturday, January 16, 2010

Nov.8, 2009 Topic "Griefers"

On Sunday, November 8, 2009, Allen Kerensky gave a talk entitled, "Out of Character: Griefers"

Allen Kerensky
Ariel Moonsoo
BriAria Mirajkar
Cursa Charisma
Deo Donovan
Falcon53 Neox
Joan Vhargon
JohhnyB Hammerer
Justine Morrow
Layla Gedenspire
Medea Warwillow
Mojo Halberd
Rheun Aero
Spyro3d Zenovka
Vel Alchemi
Vooper Werribee

(begin transcript)
[14:15] Medea Warwillow: Welcome, everyone, to the Role Play Nexus. This morning, we are privileged to receive a talk entitled, "Out of Character:Griefers" by Allen Kerensky. This event is sponsored by the SL Role-playing Game Developers group, and the Nexus.
[14:15] Vooper Werribee accepted your inventory offer.
[14:15] Zennou Yin accepted your inventory offer.
[14:15] Medea Warwillow: For those of you new to the Nexus, we provide a venue for sharing ideas, stories, questions, advice, and experiences related to role-playing in Second Life.
[14:15] Medea Warwillow: We recommend you set your viewer to Midnight, and we have epic soundtracks playing on the audio stream.
[14:16] Medea Warwillow: Please keep in mind that this is a public discussion, and a chat log will be preserved and made available here.
[14:16] SimStream Radio (Cursa version 091026): Now playing instrumental movie tracks
[14:16] Medea Warwillow: Allen's talk and related questions are planned to run approximately half an hour. The following half-hour will be devoted to discussion of topics related to the many aspects of what is considered role-playing in Second Life.
[14:16] Medea Warwillow: We will also be welcoming discussion of ideas and offers for future talk and events.
[14:17] Medea Warwillow: Transcripts of the previous talks given in the nexus can be procured by touching the advertisements surrounding the seating area.
[14:17] Medea Warwillow: So, without further ado...Here's Allen!
[14:17] Allen Kerensky: thankee!
[14:17] Cursa Charisma applauds
[14:17] Ariel Moonsoo trills
[14:17] Allen Kerensky: welcome to the nexus ... first a safety moment: when dealing with griefers - expect rascist propsaganda and adult topics
[14:18] Ariel Moonsoo: And the occasional flying phalus
[14:18] Allen Kerensky: What is a griefer? Well, grief is misery or suffering... so a griefer is someone who causes that to others.
[14:18] Cursa Charisma nods
[14:18] Allen Kerensky: Why do griefers do it?
[14:18] Allen Kerensky: First - accidentally - noobs may just want to see what something does that someone handed them
[14:19] Allen Kerensky: I don't really classify accidental misfires as agriefing ... I know I've exploded whole folders of inventory over the landscape accidentally
[14:19] Allen Kerensky: so... for griefing, I'd like to confine the discussion to intentional griefers
[14:19] Cursa Charisma nods
[14:20] Allen Kerensky: but, I wanted to remind folks that accidents happen and when dealing with griefers, an accident is always a possibility
[14:20] Medea Warwillow nods
[14:20] Allen Kerensky: There are several reasons griefers do it... for "lulz" - laughs at other people's expenses
[14:20] Allen Kerensky: if they can make you cry out loud, they win
[14:20] Joan Vhargon: Hello all. The other talk was just wrapping up. You may get a few new attendees.
[14:20] Allen Kerensky: ah great!
[14:20] Ariel Moonsoo: How'd it go?
[14:21] Allen Kerensky: Anotehr base motivation for griefers is to show their superiority over you - they know "tricks" and the best way to show them off is at your expense
[14:21] Joan Vhargon: It was good. We need to do more of that.
[14:21] Ariel Moonsoo nibbles on Johnny's cape then tries to look innocent
[14:22] Allen Kerensky: And, possibly the worst motivation for griefers is malice - they intentionally want to hurt other people on the basis of rascism, prejudice, etc - they want your community or group to suffer because they don't like it
[14:22] Cursa Charisma nods
[14:22] Allen Kerensky: Furries, Goreans, and fetishists are the usual targets of malicious griefers
[14:22] Allen Kerensky: welcome all newcomers
[14:22] Vooper Werribee: Rentamob arrives :)
[14:23] Allen Kerensky: as catchup - I've mentioned a bit about what griefers are (people who cause misery intentionally) and what motivates them
[14:23] Medea Warwillow grins
[14:23] Ariel Moonsoo trills to the new comers
[14:23] Allen Kerensky: motivations are to get laughs at others expenses, show off tricks they know that you don't, or to intentionally damage your community
[14:23] Allen Kerensky: The core of griefing comes in HOW they do it
[14:24] Allen Kerensky: This is the part that RPers and simlords will end up focused on... what are the griefer tricks of the trade
[14:24] Firefly 1.025 (beta): You gained 5 Experience
[14:24] Vooper Werribee perks up
[14:24] Allen Kerensky: The bulk of griefers rely on scripted attack tools
[14:24] Allen Kerensky: These tools may have one or more effects such as spamming chat text in local chat or IMs
[14:25] Allen Kerensky: A favorite is particle spam - usually a shock image is shown on thousands of particles at once lagging every viewer in range
[14:25] Medea Warwillow nods
[14:25] Allen Kerensky: Along with particles - you may get sounds spam
[14:26] Allen Kerensky: much like your favorite gesture terrorist, some "shocking" sound is played - usually thousands of times at the same time to try to just jam your audio
[14:26] Allen Kerensky: A newer version of this is SLvoice spamming - the intentional locked-open microphone with porn or some manifesto playing in the background
[14:26] Allen Kerensky: These are common, and usually less harmless methods of being annoying
[14:27] Allen Kerensky: there are two other commonly available types of tools which are more serious - these tools exploit the limits of the SL physics engine or exploit bugs in SL itself
[14:27] Cursa Charisma frowns
[14:27] Allen Kerensky: These scripted tools may try to rez thousands of scripted physics objects to the sim an crash it
[14:28] Allen Kerensky: Or exploit a sim bug, like the early recurve tools that allowed a single script command to crash a sim.
[14:28] BriAria Mirajkar: yikes
[14:28] Allen Kerensky: Griefers also have non-scripted tools
[14:29] Allen Kerensky: libsecondlife, now called libmetaverse, allows for C# or Mono programs to connect directly to SL
[14:29] Medea Warwillow: Hmm.
[14:29] Allen Kerensky: and there are some griefer tools using libmetaverse now, as well as some anti-griefer tools that keep sims running
[14:29] Ariel Moonsoo: There are plenty of good uses for libsl - like group management bots.
[14:29] Allen Kerensky: correct
[14:30] Allen Kerensky: and the fireguard code that keeps furry sims from being crashed
[14:30] Allen Kerensky: the tool isn't the problem - its the user
[14:30] Allen Kerensky: Griefers also have taken open source viewer code and made their own viewers like ShoopLife and ThugLyfe which have evasion built into them
[14:31] Allen Kerensky: to let them avoid bans, avoid detection, and such. These viewers have prompted the Lindens to annoy a "viewer review before connect" policy later this year
[14:31] Allen Kerensky: so... Griefing is about causing misery, and people are willing to build and use tools to do it
[14:31] Ariel Moonsoo: Which will be mostly ineffective, as it's fairly trivial to impersonate another viewer.
[14:32] Allen Kerensky: Where can griefing happen? simply: almost anywhere in SecondLife or open grids.
[14:32] Allen Kerensky: Popular community sites for targetted groups, places sympathetic to those groups, sandboxes, any sim with open rez policies - griefers can unleash the common tools in any of those places
[14:33] Allen Kerensky: only private islands with strict entrance requirements are mostly immune, but nothing is 100% griefer free
[14:33] Medea Warwillow accepted your inventory offer.
[14:33] Allen Kerensky: Ultimately, griefers are like bad weather - it will rain, sometime
[14:33] Allen Kerensky: So how do you weather the storm?
[14:33] Ariel Moonsoo: And restricted sims are only practical for residental sims.
[14:34] Allen Kerensky: First off, there is a LOT you can do - they use tools and so can you.
[14:34] Allen Kerensky: Several third party viewers offer anti-griefing features above the regular SL viewer
[14:34] Allen Kerensky: Cool SL Viewer and Emerald Viewer are two that have specific bug fixes and anti-griefing code added to the normal SL viewer code
[14:35] Cursa Charisma: (welcome, Mojo)
[14:35] Allen Kerensky: In my experience - Cool SL Viewer is also harder to crash during a heavy duty griefer attack
[14:35] Mojo Halberd: (TY)
[14:35] Ariel Moonsoo earperks at that
[14:35] Allen Kerensky: but, in my experience, Emerald has more up-front tools to see the attacks coming and avoid them
[14:36] Allen Kerensky: so, which viewer you use is your choice - I prefer Cool SL for stability, and Emerald for features and eye candies
[14:36] Medea Warwillow nods
[14:36] Allen Kerensky: In all viewers - you have settings you can tune to minimize griefer effects
[14:36] Ariel Moonsoo: The emerald interface can be a tad cluttered
[14:36] Allen Kerensky: Edit -> Preferences -> Graphics ... and turn down your particle count
[14:37] Allen Kerensky: the preferences can also turn off in-world sounds
[14:37] Joan Vhargon: But that is for the individual user. What about the others in your sim that are being affected?
[14:37] Joan Vhargon: Is there anything we can do for them?
[14:37] Allen Kerensky: (to Joan - good question, can I come to that in a minute?)
[14:37] Joan Vhargon: (sits quietly)
[14:37] Allen Kerensky: In Cool SL and Emerald - the Avatar Radar can be your friend
[14:38] Allen Kerensky: Emerald's avatar radar has an "Age Notice" feature that lets you get an announcement when super new accounts appear
[14:38] Allen Kerensky: since griefers get banned a lot, they get new accounts a lot - so their average account age is low
[14:38] Allen Kerensky: this does NOT mean everyone under 90 days is a griefer
[14:38] Cursa Charisma nods
[14:39] Allen Kerensky: its just a heads up that someone with a new account is around, and its exactly how I caught my last griefer 2 weeks ago
[14:39] Ariel Moonsoo: Far from it - everyone was new once, and some will be good RPers.
[14:39] Firefly 1.025 (beta): You gained 5 Experience
[14:39] Allen Kerensky: exactly
[14:39] Cursa Charisma nods
[14:39] JohnnyB Hammerer: Some of us are new (to something) all the time.
[14:39] Allen Kerensky: SLX sells a variety of griefer shields and such - I personally do not use or need these - so I can't recommend any of them
[14:39] Allen Kerensky: but, if you do want to look at them, caveat emptor
[14:40] Allen Kerensky: most of them include griefing abilities of their own
[14:40] Allen Kerensky: so its hard to tell the good from the bad
[14:40] Allen Kerensky: and it really comes down to reputation of the seller and reviews of the products from others - so do your homework on any in-world anti-griefing tools you might consider buying
[14:41] Allen Kerensky: a good viewer and a good setup for it goes a long way
[14:41] Medea Warwillow accepted your inventory offer.
[14:41] Allen Kerensky: People building areas can also prevent a lot of griefing
[14:41] Allen Kerensky: Name the prims in your builds - most griefer tools rename themselves to Object when launched - to hide in the clutter
[14:41] Cursa Charisma nods
[14:42] Allen Kerensky: if all of YOUR prims are named on your parcel - the Object sticks out like a sore thumb
[14:42] Allen Kerensky: hard to do for full sims, but the more you do this the easier the habit gets
[14:42] Allen Kerensky: SL includes a lot of parcel and sim tools for setting up land to prevent griefing by default
[14:42] Allen Kerensky: No Push and No Damage settings for regions turn off two common harrassment tools
[14:43] Allen Kerensky: About: Land -> Options -> the Creation Objects, Object Entry, and Run Scripts settings let you control how much "outsiders" can rez or run on your lands
[14:43] Ariel Moonsoo: If you're running a club/museum, no build is a must. No-script should be considered.
[14:43] Cursa Charisma nods
[14:43] Allen Kerensky: exactly - think about using the platforms OWN tools
[14:43] Cursa Charisma: This parcel is no-build, no-script
[14:44] Allen Kerensky: Also, you can prepare day to day to weather the storm: define your views of what is and is not griefing and post them, along with clauses saying "this is not all, just examples" and "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone at any time for any reason"
[14:44] Allen Kerensky: it sounds bad, but having it out there early means you won't wish you had it later
[14:44] Ariel Moonsoo: If you have a sandbox on a larger parce, make it no-entry, so stuff can't get out as easily.
[14:45] Allen Kerensky: Also, put your griefing policy in your covenant where anyone can refer to it while on your land
[14:45] Allen Kerensky: And the last bits of prevention are education for sim admins and players *before* a griefer attacks
[14:45] Allen Kerensky: Last little bits here:
[14:46] Allen Kerensky: When a griefer strikes - what can player's do?
[14:46] Allen Kerensky: Rule #1 - keep your cool
[14:46] Allen Kerensky: remember this may not be intentional!
[14:46] Allen Kerensky: a kind word saying "hey, that's not good" may be enough to get someone to quit
[14:47] Allen Kerensky: educate fellow players gently in rightway,wrong way, and the way the sim plays
[14:47] Allen Kerensky: if someone starts griefing, as a player you can also get a buddy - round up some witnesses to help collect and back your story to avoid hearsay accusations
[14:47] Allen Kerensky: get on group chat and say "hey, this person may be starting some ruckus and I need some people to double check me"
[14:48] Allen Kerensky: but you have to be careful to avoid the appearance of rounding up a vigilante posse here
[14:48] Allen Kerensky: players should not have to deal with griefers other than through personal means - just identify them and report them and escalate the problem up to the sim admins if you can
[14:48] Cursa Charisma nods
[14:48] Allen Kerensky: pictures, chatlogs, and MOVIES help make your point
[14:49] Allen Kerensky: If the griefer does turn out to be intenionally annoying - keep cool and don't make threats about anything
[14:49] Allen Kerensky: just collect evidence, get your friends to come help, and get the admins involved
[14:49] Allen Kerensky: to counter the attack, turn off particles, sounds, or mute the person if their chat or SL voice is annoying
[14:50] Allen Kerensky: if a simwide bomb is going off - collect what you can evidence wise, then get out of harms way
[14:50] Allen Kerensky: resume your roleplay once the storm has passed
[14:50] Allen Kerensky: You can sit on items to avoid pushes and physics... you can use Emerald's movelock or phantom options if you are being personally targeted
[14:51] Allen Kerensky: You can also help the admins by using the Inspect option on annoying griefer objects, or using Beacons to help locate them
[14:51] Joan Vhargon: Allen, You are talking about collecting evidence. We ae collecting evidence to presnet to who? The sim admin or to Linden (or both)?
[14:51] Allen Kerensky: Emerald also has throttles for drop down menu and calling card spam
[14:51] Allen Kerensky: if you are on mainland - Linden
[14:51] Allen Kerensky: if you are on private estates - sim admins
[14:52] Allen Kerensky: unles its an SL ToS or Community Standard violation - Linden isn't going to get involved on private estates
[14:52] Allen Kerensky: Emerald Also has preferences to turn off Show Load URL and llMapDestination calls that griefers can use to clutter your screen
[14:52] Allen Kerensky: When the storm gets too bad, and it can... GET OUT
[14:53] Allen Kerensky: use an Emerald teleport trick like "go to height Z" gth ####
[14:53] Ariel Moonsoo: Have your home set to a 'safe' location that isn't likely to get griefed.
[14:53] Allen Kerensky: or if you are in a skybox, just jumpt o ground with "flr"
[14:53] Allen Kerensky: this trick lets you get out of the way of follower tools
[14:53] Allen Kerensky: most followers use a sensor to locate you ... you just need to get more than 96m from them...
[14:54] Firefly 1.025 (beta): You gained 5 Experience
[14:54] Allen Kerensky: and yes, if the storm gets too bad - head to your Home spot, or a profile pick
[14:54] Allen Kerensky: as soon as the victim disappears, the griefer assumes the "win" and generally clears out
[14:54] Allen Kerensky: in less than 5 minutes, you are back
[14:55] Ariel Moonsoo thinks the same can be said to be true of spice miners
[14:55] Allen Kerensky: if you were roleplaying, group chat or conference can let the rest of the group know you were getting griefed and out of harms way
[14:55] Allen Kerensky: so, there's a LOT players can do that does not involve "making it worse"
[14:55] Cursa Charisma nods
[14:55] Ariel Moonsoo: If you've got people you chat with frequently, copy their calling cards into a folder, that you can start a conference with.
[14:55] Allen Kerensky: teh main defense is communication - let others know its happening - look for clues, get info that can help admins clean it up faster, and more
[14:56] Allen Kerensky: for Admins - all the player tools are important, but you have way more tools at your disposal too
[14:56] Allen Kerensky: but rule #1 remains - Keep your cool
[14:56] Allen Kerensky: as soon as the griefer thinks they are annoying you - they will only get worse
[14:56] Cursa Charisma nods
[14:57] Allen Kerensky: never bother with threats - they only make it worse
[14:57] Allen Kerensky: just state the policy then act
[14:57] Falcon53 Neox: true
[14:57] Allen Kerensky: "please stop doing X - its disruptive and you may be banned"
[14:57] Allen Kerensky: if they keep going - act as the policy dictates
[14:57] Allen Kerensky: to them, they are emotionally invested in getting you upset
[14:58] Cursa Charisma: (welcome, Layla)
[14:58] Layla Gedenspire: thank you
[14:58] Allen Kerensky: for you, its just an admin task like sweeping the porch of the shop
[14:58] Cursa Charisma: Excellent point, Allen
[14:58] Allen Kerensky: don't get emotional about it or you will likely "lose" by giving the griefer what they want
[14:58] Allen Kerensky: and that means they will keep coming back
[14:58] Medea Warwillow: Agreed.\
[14:58] Allen Kerensky: when a griefer starts, your policy can include things like "Freeze First" and sort it out
[14:59] Allen Kerensky: or "Return anything annoying without warning"
[14:59] Allen Kerensky: the first actions you should take depend on when you enter the griefing
[14:59] Allen Kerensky: but generally, your response should be to ask the idiot to stop, AND shutdown whatever they are doing
[14:59] Allen Kerensky: if scripted objects are spamming chat, sounds, particles, etc - go to About Land and just return all of that person's prims
[15:00] Allen Kerensky: they can have their toys back
[15:00] Cursa Charisma nods
[15:00] Allen Kerensky: this was how I cleaned up a recent griefing on the SR landing field
[15:00] Ariel Moonsoo: If you're a sim manager, you can do the same thing from the About region/estate dialog.
[15:00] Allen Kerensky: grabbed one of the cubes, inspected it for owner, and simply returned all of that owners prims
[15:00] Allen Kerensky: as long as its not a regular who owns half of your build
[15:01] Ariel Moonsoo: But you'd know who they are.
[15:01] Medea Warwillow nods
[15:01] Lucien Velinov accepted your inventory offer.
[15:01] Allen Kerensky: but then - if everything is group deeded or whatever then its generally not a problem - you know your locals anyways
[15:01] Allen Kerensky: and they are 99% not going to be your problem
[15:01] Joan Vhargon: But a regular who owns 1/2 the build is not goingto grief.
[15:01] Ariel Moonsoo: Which is why it's a good idea to deed the build to the group (after making it copy/mod, if possible)
[15:01] Joan Vhargon: exactly
[15:01] Falcon53 Neox: most of the time
[15:01] Allen Kerensky: Admin options to respond to griefers include: returning prims, freezing them, ejecting them, or eject & ban
[15:02] Ariel Moonsoo: And restrict the set of users who can deed to group to a bare minimum.
[15:02] Allen Kerensky: and your sim policy can include all of those actions in an escalation scale - or you can jsut say "ban and eject and we'll talk about it in IMs"
[15:02] Cursa Charisma: Ariel, you mean, restrict the members of the group that owns the parcel?
[15:02] Allen Kerensky: No
[15:03] Ariel Moonsoo: Restrict the members of the group that can use the 'Deed to group' function.
[15:03] Allen Kerensky: restrict the members of the group who can affect group deeded prims - its a role ability
[15:03] Cursa Charisma: OK, cool
[15:03] Ariel Moonsoo: This is typically limited to officers.
[15:03] Medea Warwillow nods
[15:03] Cursa Charisma: Good tip
[15:03] Allen Kerensky: Now... once you've stopped the in-progress griefing ... you get to clean up
[15:03] Allen Kerensky: this can be returning prims, etc...
[15:04] Allen Kerensky: but, it can also include Communications - let the community know what happened and what you did about it
[15:04] Allen Kerensky: "this inprogress RP was disrupted and it was resolved, carry on"
[15:04] Cursa Charisma nods
[15:04] Allen Kerensky: let the other admins know, because there may be more grief attacks coming
[15:04] Allen Kerensky: a griefer seldom just hits and runs once
[15:04] Ariel Moonsoo: It could potentially also involve looking at the rules after you've had time to digest what happened, and see if anything needs to change.
[15:05] Allen Kerensky: in my experience, you have to bore them 3-4 times in a row
[15:05] Medea Warwillow grins
[15:05] Cursa Charisma nods
[15:05] Allen Kerensky: nod Ariel - that was my next point
[15:05] Allen Kerensky: cleanup the prims
[15:05] Allen Kerensky: communicate whats happened
[15:05] Allen Kerensky: some RPers also share the info with other sims, like the Firefly groups
[15:05] Allen Kerensky: and there are "shared banlists" as a website service out there if you trust others to determine that sort of thing for you
[15:06] Allen Kerensky: once cleanup and communication is done - review the entire thing and start tuning in preparation for further attacks
[15:06] Allen Kerensky: how did the griefer get started? why did they come to your place? what tools did they use?
[15:06] Allen Kerensky: how can we counter this more efficiently
[15:06] Allen Kerensky: how can we educate the players on how to play around the occasional griefer storm
[15:07] Ariel Moonsoo: ((*will need to depart shortly for a potluck*))
[15:07] Allen Kerensky: And... if you are on mainland - Abuse Report the people who caused it
[15:07] Allen Kerensky: or AR them even on private estates
[15:07] Ariel Moonsoo: Private estates can be set to send ARs to the owner in addition to the labs
[15:08] Allen Kerensky: contrary to popular belief - the Lindens *do* have a lot of anti-griefer stuff going on - the viewer and script language has specific anti-griefing designs in it
[15:08] Falcon53 Neox: good admin's are key to some of this
[15:08] Falcon53 Neox: and owners
[15:08] Allen Kerensky: a lot of aggravating things about Linden Scripting are actually there because of the need to slow down or stop griefers
[15:09] Allen Kerensky: and the Lindens also have a "grey goo fence" to stop replicating attacks as they get out of hand
[15:09] Firefly 1.025 (beta): You gained 5 Experience
[15:09] Ariel Moonsoo: They also have the ability to kill stuff grid-wide, but that's a last resort.
[15:09] Allen Kerensky: so, when you wonder why some limits are around in SL, blame the griefers for it, not Linden
[15:09] Allen Kerensky: yes, I've seen that happen actually
[15:10] Allen Kerensky: also, when emerency server updates are done for "security reasons" it generally means to close a hole that griefers could use
[15:10] Allen Kerensky: or one that could help thieves
[15:10] Allen Kerensky: so... that's my story on griefers - I know Joan had a question I needed to come back to
[15:10] Allen Kerensky: and I have some questions for you
[15:10] Allen Kerensky: and a link to a video
[15:10] Medea Warwillow applauds
[15:10] Cursa Charisma applauds
[15:10] Cursa Charisma: Excellent!
[15:10] Falcon53 Neox: *:• •:*¨¨*:•.-:¦:- -:¦:-.•:*¨¨*:• CLAPPY HANDS *:• •:*¨¨*:•.-:¦:- -:¦:-.•:*¨¨*:•
[15:11] Vooper Werribee: applauds - excellent talk!
[15:11] Rheun Aero: Very useful - Thanks
[15:11] Allen Kerensky: Homework: How does your favorite places define griefing? How do your favorite places decide what is and is not griefing? And, are griefers guilty until proven innocent, or innocent until proven guilty?
[15:12] Allen Kerensky: And - here's my favorite video of a griefing in progress: a well known griefing group called the PN, unleashing a "Mario Mosh Pit":
[15:12] Cursa Charisma: (watching)
[15:12] Allen Kerensky: Mario Moshpit is a particle and sound spammer
[15:12] Falcon53 Neox: I have let that to others now and for the most part given up on RPing
[15:12] Vooper Werribee: Have you got time for a quick question Allen?
[15:12] Allen Kerensky: yes
[15:12] Ariel Moonsoo streatches
[15:12] Allen Kerensky: sorry for going long - there was a lot in the outline
[15:12] Vooper Werribee: What do you think is the VERY WORST that could happen in a grieifing attack
[15:13] Allen Kerensky: I own Joan a question too
[15:13] Medea Warwillow: HOly smokes..that's alot of Marios.
[15:13] Allen Kerensky: the sim crashes
[15:13] Allen Kerensky: a physics attack can lag a sim to crash
[15:13] Joan Vhargon: Yes. My question?
[15:13] Allen Kerensky: or, a scripted attack against a bug can crash the sim in a single command
[15:14] Allen Kerensky: yes Joan - I asked to defer a question earlier - looking for it now
[15:15] Allen Kerensky: you were asking about collecting evidence?
[15:15] Cursa Charisma: That video made a clear point that one type of activity that can become griefing is a young (figuratively or literally) user becoming intoxicated with the wonderful power of the SL tools
[15:15] Allen Kerensky: did my notes about player response cover that?
[15:15] Cursa Charisma: Welcome, Justine
[15:15] Allen Kerensky: lol Cursa
[15:15] Justine Morrow: Howdy.
[15:15] Ariel Moonsoo gives a final streatch and TPs home.
[15:15] Joan Vhargon: Yes it did. All covered.
[15:15] Allen Kerensky: exactly what I mentioned at the beginning - some griefing is just someone trying out a tool to "see what it does" and realizing a can of whoop-em was just opened
[15:15] Joan Vhargon: Comunicate, documate and evacuate.
[15:16] Vooper Werribee: bowls?
[15:16] Allen Kerensky: yeah before you get too lagged or the sim crashed - if possible an admin can usually head off an attack before it reaches the run-and-pray stage
[15:17] Allen Kerensky: for example - SR had a zillion physics cubes spawning on the landing field one night
[15:17] Allen Kerensky: I happened ot log in early, and caught it before they had multiplied down tot he point where SR crashed
[15:17] Allen Kerensky: mostly it was just at the "this is annoying get out of here" stage for players
[15:17] Vel Alchemi: I have to leave. This was very information. Thanks so much.
[15:18] Vooper Werribee: Yeah - if a sim crash is the worst that can happen - then that really isn't very bad
[15:18] Allen Kerensky: you're welcome - hope you got some tips from it
[15:18] Allen Kerensky: depends on the sim
[15:18] Allen Kerensky: and how often it happens
[15:18] Vooper Werribee: a sim crash doesn't lose data or build
[15:18] Allen Kerensky: there was a tool in 2006/2007 called recurve
[15:18] Allen Kerensky: recurve could crash sims in a heartbeat - and when your business sits in the sim - that's bad
[15:19] Allen Kerensky: its Denial of Service at least
[15:19] JohnnyB Hammerer: I had a radar with an infinite loop get away once.
[15:19] Joan Vhargon: So if there are a zillion objects how does the sim recover? The objects will still be there after restart.
[15:19] Vooper Werribee: but if it's a roleplay sim - it's really not that bad
[15:19] Allen Kerensky: actually
[15:19] Allen Kerensky: the zillion objects may not be
[15:19] Allen Kerensky: the sims run in cached memory
[15:19] Allen Kerensky: if they crash and have no snapshotted the objects state down
[15:19] Allen Kerensky: the restart may start to a slightly earlier time
[15:19] Joan Vhargon: That would be nice. It depends on when the last cache was made.
[15:20] Allen Kerensky: but, there are some tools that come back into the sim and crash it again
[15:20] Allen Kerensky: one is the lolturtle
[15:20] Allen Kerensky: it will scan the sim looking for a place to rez attack payloads
[15:20] Vooper Werribee: To be honest in the case of a really terrible attack as sim admin you might just want to hit the restart button before the attack crashes the sim anyway
[15:20] Allen Kerensky: once it finds one - the attack starts all over again
[15:20] Allen Kerensky: well, if you are an admin with restart capability - you can also clean the objects and people causing the attack
[15:21] Allen Kerensky: clearing SR was literally about 10 mouseclicks and 2 minutes of time
[15:21] Joan Vhargon: That's if the admin is there. I'm on a lot but not that much.
[15:21] Vooper Werribee nods
[15:21] Allen Kerensky: and that was a lot because I had to get 2 parcels
[15:21] Vooper Werribee: but something that has you taken by surprise and you can't think how to stop it
[15:21] Vooper Werribee: would restart be a good option?
[15:22] Allen Kerensky: and if a sim does save state with a problem - and goes into a crash loop, it will flag the lindens to come look once the crash loop happens more than X times
[15:22] Allen Kerensky: it can be, but that also tells a griefer they win
[15:23] Allen Kerensky: their tool worked well enough that you can't counter it any way other then DoSing yourself
[15:23] Allen Kerensky: they will be back with in, in all likelihood
[15:23] Allen Kerensky: if just to show their friends they can crash your sim
[15:23] Allen Kerensky: who will then likely try as well
[15:23] Vooper Werribee nods - or make you do it for them :)
[15:23] Allen Kerensky: well yeah
[15:24] Allen Kerensky: every computer has resource limits
[15:24] Firefly 1.025 (beta): You gained 5 Experience
[15:24] Allen Kerensky: its not possible to prevent 100% of crashes from overloading a sim
[15:24] Allen Kerensky: but - LL's sim code is actually pretty robust after 6 years of abuse and learning
[15:24] Allen Kerensky: its far harder now than it was in 2005 or 2006
[15:25] Allen Kerensky: then a sneeze at the wrong time would drop the grid or a sim
[15:25] Vooper Werribee: :)
[15:25] Allen Kerensky: the real hardcore problems are pretty rare
[15:25] JohnnyB Hammerer: Ah choo!
[15:25] Allen Kerensky: mostly its about being annoying and making videos of it
[15:25] Vooper Werribee: hits restart
[15:25] Allen Kerensky: which is why I recommend not to respond other than to restate the "party line" policy
[15:26] Allen Kerensky: the video of the mario mosh pit is a good example of what you are in for - rains of shock images and sounds
[15:26] Allen Kerensky: or spammed chat
[15:26] Allen Kerensky: the biggest threats on the radar that I can see are attacks based on replicators and physics overloads
[15:27] Vooper Werribee: When griefers can delete buildings or hack into scripts - then I'll be worried
[15:27] Allen Kerensky: usually a cloud seeder will slowly replicate - to avoid the grey goo fence - then unleash a physics box rain or something
[15:27] Vooper Werribee: if the worst they can do is bring a sim down - and Allen you've shown there are many ways that people can make even that hard work - then I can't get too excited :)
[15:27] Allen Kerensky: those take a while to launch so you can usally detect them starting
[15:28] Allen Kerensky: well, let me posit this: what if bringing the sim down is a reputational attack?
[15:28] Allen Kerensky: this is one of the goals of griefers in communities like the furry areas
[15:28] Allen Kerensky: they want to "drive off" people to limit the spread of an objectionable community
[15:28] Vooper Werribee: Hmm - If stood up and announced my SL sim is 'rock solid' I deserve everything I get :)
[15:29] Allen Kerensky: deserve?
[15:29] Vooper Werribee: Oh - isee
[15:29] Allen Kerensky: I disagree
[15:29] Allen Kerensky: I don't deserve a car accident, why deserve a crash attack?
[15:29] Vooper Werribee: I thought you mean t Iwas staking my reputation on having a non-crashable sim
[15:29] Allen Kerensky: no
[15:30] Rheun Aero: need to head off, thanks Allen for the info. Bye all.
[15:30] Allen Kerensky: the reputation is "why go there to play/shop/live/whatever - its always down and full of griefers"
[15:30] Vooper Werribee: Bye Rheun
[15:31] Allen Kerensky: technical griefing is getting harder as the code and admins get better - social griefing? must less controllable
[15:31] Vooper Werribee: Right - yep - but if you get greifer attacks targeted at you like that you're going to get good at dealing withthem
[15:31] Vooper Werribee: I think you mentioned the furs had been successful in combatting the DoS attacks
[15:31] Allen Kerensky: its easy to offend people - what if racist propaganda starts up?
[15:31] Allen Kerensky: or... liek the time Anshe Chung got griefed at a press conference
[15:32] Allen Kerensky: if you never heard that story - the peener hat made an appearance on that one
[15:32] Vooper Werribee: well hate crimes are against ToS - so in effect the Lindens step in and dela withthat
[15:32] Allen Kerensky: SL is actually LESS prepared now for racist or inflammatory things than ever
[15:33] Vooper Werribee: Ok - now you're scaring me :)
[15:33] Vooper Werribee: I was feeling pretty good a minute ago! :)
[15:33] Allen Kerensky: because oft he PG/Mature/Adult changes, people expect more sanity on the grid ... which I hope doesn't cause escalated events
[15:33] Allen Kerensky: people logging in new expect that PG and Mature means "safe"
[15:33] Allen Kerensky: and only worry on those scary "Adult" areas
[15:34] Allen Kerensky: but - PG/Mature does not mean "griefer proof" and when 8192 Hitler Rave animations start - a large section of the community could be more shocked than back when the grid was more laid back about "the weirdness" going on
[15:34] Vooper Werribee nods
[15:35] Allen Kerensky: so, the creation of an atmosphere where "the ratings make it safer" may actually enhance the "shock" value of some of the tools
[15:35] Allen Kerensky: and provide greater reputation damage to the places that are targetted
[15:35] Vooper Werribee: Of course the Lindens now have the perfect answer to anyone who is terrified of the maliciousnes of the grid
[15:35] Allen Kerensky: "I went to that club and dancing hitler appeared, I will NEVER go back" sorts of issues are a concern of mine now that "Linden cleaned up the grid" lol
[15:36] Vooper Werribee: they simply wheel out their 'behind the firewall' product :)
[15:36] Allen Kerensky: perception vs. reality
[15:36] Allen Kerensky: yes - for $55K
[15:36] Allen Kerensky: I don't see that happening in mass quantity anytime soon
[15:36] Vooper Werribee: but at a price tag of 55 thousand dollars it's not one most Roleplay sims can afford :)
[15:36] Vooper Werribee: yep :)
[15:37] Allen Kerensky: this year has been more griefing than in the previous 4+, for me, in SL
[15:37] Allen Kerensky: which is odd
[15:37] Allen Kerensky: the effects of the attacks are much more ignorable than ever though - its mostly like kids shouting profanity and you put in ear plugs than "the sim is going down!"
[15:39] Firefly 1.025 (beta): You gained 5 Experience
[15:39] Allen Kerensky: hmm i think I've stunned everyone senseless
[15:40] Vooper Werribee: :)
[15:40] Allen Kerensky: any other questions I can pontificate or rant about?
[15:40] Vooper Werribee: This is usually the time where Cursa or Dea starts to ask about next weeks talk
[15:41] Allen Kerensky: well, I stepped up and did one - so, the chalenge is out for others to get on the podium
[15:41] Vooper Werribee: Any takers?
[15:42] Falcon53 Neox: well must go thank you for the talk I'll get the notes later it has thought me a lot , and nice to see you all again
[15:42] Allen Kerensky: take care Falcon!
[15:42] Layla Gedenspire: bye falcon
[15:42] Falcon53 Neox: one day we may RP again
[15:42] JohnnyB Hammerer: See you
[15:43] Vooper Werribee: Look forward to that day :)
[15:44] Vooper Werribee: Well, I need to go as well, thanks for the talk Allen - tons of practical advice in there
[15:44] Allen Kerensky: i hope so - hoped someone could get some useful tips out of the ranting
[15:45] Vooper Werribee: I calculated a tips to rant ratio of greater than 87%!!! :D
[15:46] Allen Kerensky: laugh
[15:46] Layla Gedenspire: grins
[15:46] Vooper Werribee: I'm going to have to log - nice to catch everyone :)
[15:46] Allen Kerensky: wave
[15:46] Layla Gedenspire: bye Vooper
[15:46] Layla Gedenspire: bye Allen
[15:46] Layla Gedenspire: bye joan
[15:46] Vooper Werribee: Bye for now :)
[15:46] Allen Kerensky: i guess everyone is on YouTube watching all the PN videos
[15:46] Layla Gedenspire: bye everybody
[15:47] Justine Morrow: Bye Layla.
[15:48] Allen Kerensky: congrats ont he RP class too, Justine - the minimap looked packed over there
[15:48] JohnnyB Hammerer: Bye
[15:48] Allen Kerensky: will you be doing the RP classes regularly?
[15:48] Justine Morrow: Biweekly.
[15:48] Justine Morrow: Every other sunday.
[15:48] Joan Vhargon: Bye Layla
[15:49] Justine Morrow: and thank you.
[15:49] Justine Morrow: Sorry, having some problems with my connection. >.<
[15:50] Cursa Charisma: (back)
[15:50] Allen Kerensky: =)
[15:50] Allen smiles.
[15:50] Allen Kerensky: sorry shub internet is eating connections
[15:50] Cursa Charisma: Well, I have the whole thing on my chat log, will edit a transcript as soon as I can
[15:51] Cursa Charisma: Shub internet? Is that like the cyber-goat with a thousand young?
[15:51] Allen Kerensky: yes
[15:51] Cursa Charisma: Cool
[15:51] Allen Kerensky: except it hungers for your packets
[15:52] Cursa Charisma nods
[15:52] Justine Morrow: *goes insane.*
[15:52] Cursa Charisma: Temporarily, or permanently?
[15:52] Cursa Charisma: hehe
[15:52] Cursa Charisma yearns for some good HPL-based RP
[15:52] Justine Morrow: "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn,"
[15:53] Cursa Charisma nods
[15:53] Cursa Charisma: Ia! Ia!
[15:53] Allen Kerensky: san checks all around
[15:53] Allen Kerensky: we all fail
[15:53] Justine Morrow: October Country is coming back.
[15:53] Allen Kerensky: off to arkahm we go
[15:53] Cursa Charisma: Is it? Great!
[15:53] Justine Morrow: Yeah.
[15:53] Justine Morrow: Not sure Martians plans, though.
[15:53] Cursa Charisma: There's an Innsmouth, the build looks good, but I see no RP
[15:53] Cursa Charisma: And Arkham seems to be a themed residential, I don't see any sign of rp
[15:54] Firefly 1.025 (beta): You gained 5 Experience
[15:54] Spyro3d Zenovka: very informative, thank you, got to head back to the wastelands:)
[15:54] Cursa Charisma: FYI, ASARU Byk makes some great avs - he has a huge Cthulhu whose tentacles follow you, hehe
[15:54] Allen Kerensky: you're welcome!
[15:54] Cursa Charisma: Spyro, thanks for coming, hope to see and hear from you again soon
[15:54] Cursa Charisma grins
[15:55] Spyro3d Zenovka: i'm sure u will, just finding the time is the hard part:)
[15:55] Cursa Charisma: We try to move the times around to accomodate
[15:55] Cursa Charisma: But these talks are usually Sunday
[15:56] Cursa Charisma: While I was afk, was there any discussion of next week's talk?
[15:56] Allen Kerensky: yes
[15:56] Cursa Charisma: Woo-hoo!
[15:56] Allen Kerensky: but no volunteers or topics
[15:56] Cursa Charisma: Oh
[15:56] Cursa Charisma laughs
[15:56] Allen Kerensky: so, we chose you to give a talk on giving talks
[15:56] Allen Kerensky: like a pep talk
[15:57] Cursa Charisma: LOL
[15:57] Justine Morrow: Ill get the pom poms.
[15:57] Spyro3d Zenovka: cool, i, sounds good, now hopefully i wont get a failed TP and logged out lol
[15:57] Cursa Charisma: Go Nexus, you're our plan, if you can't do it, noone can!
[15:58] Cursa Charisma: Murphy struck this morning - first, the URL on the music stream is dead
[15:58] SimStream Radio (Cursa version 091026): Now playing hot salsa selections
[15:58] Cursa Charisma: And now I have to go out on a rush job
[15:58] Cursa Charisma: Grr
[15:58] Cursa Charisma: Justine, would you be interested in giving a talk on multi-genre or cross-genre rp?
[15:59] Allen Kerensky: that would be good
[15:59] Cursa Charisma: Being notably versatile in that regard
[15:59] Cursa Charisma smiles broadly
[15:59] Allen Kerensky: since my Imperial Scout was molested by a steampunk pedal driven flyer earlier today in an attempt shipjacking
[15:59] Justine Morrow: Next week Ill be away from the computer due to a convention.
[15:59] Cursa Charisma: Ahh, OK, but how about a future week?
[16:00] Justine Morrow: At some point, sure.
[16:00] Cursa Charisma: Cool!
(end transcript)

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