Dec.13, 2009 Topic "To Alt, or not to Alt?"

On Sunday, December 13, 2009, Cursa Charisma gave a talk entitled, "To Alt, or Not to Alt?", followed by an open discussion.

Participating were:
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Alaraan Giordano
Baroun Tardis
CoolLukeSands
Cursa Charisma
Joan Vhargon
Mary Meek
Maximus Kenin
Mikie Rhiadra
Naughty Later
Quentin Foulsbane
Reiko Soyinka
Sita Piek
Six Static
Tabitha Diesel
Vel Alchemi

(transcript begins)
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[15:56] Cursa Charisma: Welcome, Joan
[15:57] Maximus Kenin: Greetings Joan
[15:57] Joan Vhargon: Hello Cursa, Hello Maximus
[15:57] Cursa Charisma: Welcome, Mary and Naughty
[15:57] Mary Meek: Hello! Sorry if I stamped on anyone. Is this the right place for the discussion?
[15:58] Cursa Charisma: It is!
[15:58] Cursa Charisma: We'll be starting in a few minutes
[15:58] Cursa Charisma: Please make yourselves comfortable
[15:58] Mary Meek: Oooh great! Thanks
[15:58] Joan Vhargon: Places everyone!! Places!
[15:58] Cursa Charisma: We have movie soundtracks on the audio stream
[15:58] Cursa Charisma: Ah, a performance by the Joan Vhargon Players?
[15:58] Cursa Charisma: hehe
[15:59] Mary Meek: Errr ... Who are they?
[15:59] Cursa Charisma: Svetka!
[16:00] Cursa Charisma grins
[16:00] Joan Vhargon: I left my top hat at home. damn.
[16:00] Svetlana Pleides: shepard
[16:01] Cursa Charisma: We'll wait just a couple of minutes and then begin
[16:02] Cursa Charisma: Welcome, Sita
[16:02] Sita Piek: hello
[16:03] Svetlana Pleides waves
[16:03] Sita Piek: it's very quiet - are you using voice?
[16:04] Cursa Charisma: I'm not
[16:04] Cursa Charisma grins
[16:04] Cursa Charisma: I'm just waiting a minute to see if we are going to get any more attendees, then we can begin
[16:05] Cursa Charisma: Welcome, Alaraan
[16:05] Alaraan Giordano: ty
[16:05] Cursa Charisma: If everyone is comfortable, let us begin
[16:05] Cursa Charisma: Welcome to the Role Play Nexus
[16:06] Cursa Charisma: We have movie soundtracks on the music stream, and recommend setting your viewer to Midnight for the best experience
[16:06] Cursa Charisma grins
[16:06] Cursa Charisma: I am Cursa Charisma, and on behalf of the Nexus and of the SL RPG Developers group, I'd like to thank you for coming today
[16:07] Cursa Charisma: I will be giving a short talk entitled, "To Alt, Or Not To Alt?", followed by an open discussion
[16:07] Mary Meek: ((Eeep sorry don't mean to be rude, getting dragged off))
[16:07] Cursa Charisma: Feel free to interject with questions and comments during my talk, but the hope is that I will frame the main concepts and questions, and we will all explore them freely in the discussion afterward.
[16:07] Cursa Charisma: ((peace, Mary))
[16:07] Cursa Charisma: Our topic today is alts.
[16:07] Narrative in Roleplaying: Naughty Later, here is the transcript of this Nexus talk
[16:07] What is RP in SL?: Naughty Later, here is the transcript of this Nexus talk
[16:08] Cursa Charisma: Alts are avatars for multiple accounts operated by the same person. There are many reasons people operate alts, but we will focus on how and why they are used in role playing venues in Second Life.
[16:08] Open Discussion Nov. 22, '09: Naughty Later, here is the transcript of this Nexus talk
[16:08] Open Discussion Nov. 15 '09: Naughty Later, here is the transcript of this Nexus talk
[16:08] Cursa Charisma: My intention is to show that alts are a tool like the others available to us in SL. As Deckard said of replicants in "Blade Runner", they "are like any other machine; they're either a benefit or a hazard. If they're a benefit, it's not my problem."
[16:08] "Achieving Sustainability": Naughty Later, here is a transcript of the talk
[16:09] Cursa Charisma: Welcome, Six
[16:09] "OOC: Griefers": Naughty Later, here is a transcript of the talk
[16:09] Cursa Charisma: Among the uses of alts I have encountered in SL role playing groups have been:
[16:09] RP Nexus Current Event Poster: Naughty Later, this is a poster for the current event at the Nexus
[16:09] Cursa Charisma: 1) to conceal one's identity from some or all others online;
[16:09] Cursa Charisma: 2) to separate rp activities from other activities in SL;
[16:09] Cursa Charisma: 3) for rp in different characters in the same group;
[16:09] Cursa Charisma: 4) for rp in different characters in different groups;
[16:09] Cursa Charisma: Each of these uses has a variety of aspects, and can be combined with one or more of the others.
[16:10] Cursa Charisma: 1) to conceal one's identity from some or all others online:
[16:10] Cursa Charisma: Alts are often contentious because of the implication that their use implies some intent to deceive. This is partially related to controversy about the nature of privacy.
[16:10] Keepin' It Virtual: Sita Piek, the line between role-play and offline relationships is one of the dilemmas of Second Life
[16:10] "OOC: Griefers": Sita Piek, here is a transcript of the talk
[16:10] "Achieving Sustainability": Sita Piek, here is a transcript of the talk
[16:11] Cursa Charisma: There is nothing improper about concealing one's identity, and it can be a wise policy online. Keep in mind the time-honored principle that using an alias is perfectly legal unless there is intent to defraud.
[16:11] Cursa Charisma: At the same time, there is an underlying suspicion of others' trustworthiness and intent online. When communicating with text, or Second Life gestures, we lack the usual cues that come from facial expression, tone of voice, and body language. Without familiar cues of reassurance, our back-brains go on the alert, making us fear the worst.
[16:11] Cursa Charisma: Welcome, Vel
[16:11] Vel Alchemi: Thanks, Cursa. Still rezzing.
[16:11] Cursa Charisma nods
[16:12] Cursa Charisma: This is true of the use of text, of course, and it is also true of the use of alts.
[16:12] Cursa Charisma: 2) to separate rp activities from other activities in SL:
[16:12] Cursa Charisma: Many people are involved in Second Life solely for role playing, but most are also engaged in other activities. If one is involved in business, for example, having a profile not filled with rp-related Picks and information may be a necessity.
[16:13] Cursa Charisma: 3) for rp in different characters in different groups:
[16:13] Cursa Charisma: It can also be very useful to have separate profile information, inventory, and so on when one is role playing in different groups.
[16:14] Cursa Charisma: 4) for rp in different characters in the same group:
[16:14] Cursa Charisma: Welcome, Reiko
[16:14] Cursa Charisma: The same reasons apply here, of course. Also, there is the problem that even if one uses titlers and very different avatar appearance, it is an endless challenge trying to get across to other players that one is playing a different character from the one they have identified with one's avatar.
[16:14] Cursa Charisma: I will hand around my notes here so that you can refer to them during the discussion
[16:14] Svetlana Pleides: a whole other account
[16:15] Cursa Charisma: There are of course many questions and challenges connected with these uses of alts. Rather than pontificating at length on my opinions of them, I'd like to conclude my talk, and begin the open discussion.
[16:15] Sita Piek accepted your inventory offer.
[16:15] Alaraan Giordano accepted your inventory offer.
[16:15] Maximus Kenin accepted your inventory offer.
[16:15] Six Static accepted your inventory offer.
[16:15] Vel Alchemi accepted your inventory offer.
[16:16] Reiko Soyinka accepted your inventory offer.
[16:16] Naughty Later accepted your inventory offer.
[16:16] Svetlana Pleides accepted your inventory offer.
[16:16] Cursa Charisma: Did anyone not get that notecard just now?
[16:16] Alaraan Giordano: it took me a long time to understand reasons for alts but now it makes sense - esp. for RP or owning a business
[16:17] Alaraan Giordano: (i got the notes)
[16:17] Cursa Charisma nods
[16:17] CoolLuke Sands accepted your inventory offer.
[16:17] Joan Vhargon accepted your inventory offer.
[16:17] Sita Piek: yes... also for avoiding people when you don't want to play THEIR games.
[16:17] Cursa Charisma nods
[16:17] Svetlana Pleides: for owning a busienss it can bea great idea.
[16:17] Svetlana Pleides: LOL
[16:17] Vel Alchemi: My problem with RP is separating myself from the role. A separate alt will help me keep to the spirit of the RP.
[16:18] Alaraan Giordano: of all kinds, Sita
[16:18] Svetlana Pleides: Amen Sita
[16:19] Cursa Charisma: One area I didn't go into in the outline was the malicious use of alts. They can and are used to trick, manipulate, and harm others
[16:19] Maximus Kenin: I also left SL as a result of alts
[16:19] Alaraan Giordano: or to observe others who would not want them doing so (spying)
[16:19] Maximus Kenin: the first dozen women I met were alts
[16:19] Cursa Charisma: Can you tell us about that, Maximus?
[16:19] Bellemorde Exonar declined your inventory offer.
[16:20] Maximus Kenin: we became friends
[16:20] Maximus Kenin: and then they decided not to lose their original characters
[16:20] Maximus Kenin: and I didn't fit in the other character's life
[16:20] Sita Piek: They couldn't play both?
[16:20] Reiko Soyinka: You picked a series of women who all thought alike?
[16:20] Maximus Kenin: Who knows
[16:21] Maximus Kenin: just telling you like it is
[16:21] Cursa Charisma nods
[16:21] Svetlana Pleides: it can be tough playing more than one character. especially during a major RP event
[16:21] Maximus Kenin: So now I'm very selective about who I befriend
[16:21] Sita Piek: well it can during RL events too. But most of us manage, more or less
[16:21] Svetlana Pleides: fun, but tough.
[16:22] Sita Piek: I've tried Rping more than one char in the same RP here and elsewhere
[16:22] Cursa Charisma: Maximus, would it have made a difference if these people had specified up front, in their profiles, for example, "I play several avatars and this will never be the only one"?
[16:22] Sita Piek: and it is too hard for me to keep them separate
[16:22] Maximus Kenin: in RL, you can judge "class" by a persons demeanor, etc.
[16:22] Maximus Kenin: that is missing here
[16:22] Cursa Charisma nods
[16:22] Svetlana Pleides: we have no class here :):)
[16:23] Maximus Kenin: It is hard to be articulate when you're ignorant
[16:23] Reiko Soyinka: We do have class here.
[16:23] Cursa Charisma is reminded of an Alice Cooper lyric
[16:24] Joan Vhargon: I agree we do have a class structure here
[16:24] Joan Vhargon: It is defined multiple ways
[16:24] Cursa Charisma listens
[16:24] Joan Vhargon: Birth date
[16:24] Maximus Kenin: yes
[16:24] Joan Vhargon: appearance
[16:24] Sita Piek: yes!
[16:24] Cursa Charisma nods
[16:24] Joan Vhargon: groups we belong to
[16:25] Svetlana Pleides: I have to go. I am sorry but Rl interference...
[16:25] Maximus Kenin: "occupation"
[16:25] Cursa Charisma: Peace, Svetka
[16:25] Vel Alchemi: Our picks.
[16:25] Joan Vhargon: paid or not paid membership
[16:25] Joan Vhargon: Just a few you can tell by looking at a profile
[16:25] Reiko Soyinka: Speech, just as in real life...
[16:26] Cursa Charisma: And people form judgements based on the signals they *can* receive, such as those
[16:26] Joan Vhargon: yes the language someone uses and there spling
[16:26] Cursa Charisma smiles broadly
[16:26] Maximus Kenin: in voice chat, class is eady to determine (for the most part)
[16:27] Maximus Kenin: typos don't necessarily indicate class
[16:27] Cursa Charisma: Yes, there are few professional-quality voice actors out there
[16:27] Sita Piek: I've been told that because I use words that are - polysyllabic, I MUST be an educated person - and class in voice only works if that person is actually from your country
[16:27] Six Static: appearance is the number one giveaway of a new alt
[16:27] Reiko Soyinka: Agree, Sita.
[16:27] Vel Alchemi: n uzing txt tlk
[16:27] Joan Vhargon: Yes Agree
[16:28] Reiko Soyinka: Disagree, Six.
[16:28] Sita Piek: Some people CHOOSE to keep that noob appearance
[16:28] Alaraan Giordano: here's one: if someone curses a lot - i see that happening more in Voice than text chat, interestingly enough
[16:28] Reiko Soyinka: Agree, Sita.
[16:28] Cursa Charisma: Ah, Alaraan, that's interesting
[16:28] Reiko Soyinka grins
[16:28] Joan Vhargon: Yes it is.
[16:28] Reiko Soyinka: Agree Alaraan
[16:29] Cursa Charisma: The "main" avatar has more social caution
[16:29] Maximus Kenin: what constistures a "noob" appearance?
[16:29] Six Static: no AO
[16:29] Alaraan Giordano: Ruth
[16:29] Sita Piek: mmm liguists would say that text chat is still closer to written than to spoken language and the more swearing in voice would bear that out
[16:29] Reiko Soyinka: Small head
[16:29] Sita Piek: linguists*
[16:29] Cursa Charisma: But if I were to make an alt, I would quickly outfit it with my current top level of "smooth", wouldn't I?
[16:29] Alaraan Giordano: original SL avi walking around
[16:30] Alaraan Giordano: (o:
[16:30] Sita Piek: lol noob? poor skin, poor hair, huge muscles, big head, very long legs
[16:30] Baroun Tardis: Am I late?
[16:30] Cursa Charisma: Welcome, Baroun
[16:30] Baroun Tardis: yep
[16:30] Baroun Tardis: Sorry folks
[16:30] Maximus Kenin: I only ask because I've been acused of being an alt
[16:30] Cursa Charisma: Yes, we seem to be conflating noobs with alts, or am I mistaken?
[16:30] Joan Vhargon: Sita. Why do some choose to keep the noob apperance? There is a social stigma attached to being a "noob."
[16:30] Maximus Kenin: and I am not.
[16:30] Sita Piek: Some I have met were alts - people doing "research on SL"
[16:30] Sita Piek: but I'm sure they played on other avs as well
[16:30] Cursa Charisma: Welcome Luke and Tabi!
[16:31] CoolLuke Sands: Hi All
[16:31] Joan Vhargon: So the "noob" look was a costume?
[16:31] Tabitha Diesel: hiya all
[16:31] Maximus Kenin: Is it hair, blatant tatoos?
[16:31] Sita Piek: That is how they were using it
[16:31] Sita Piek: as costume
[16:31] Maximus Kenin: Iam serious? What ages an av?
[16:31] Sita Piek: and hiding on an alt
[16:31] Cursa Charisma: Welcome Quentin!
[16:31] CoolLuke Sands: everyone rezzing...waiting to find a seat
[16:31] Reiko Soyinka: I've know a couple who were just oblivious to how they looked...
[16:31] Sita Piek: me, when I make an alt, I work hard on her appearance
[16:32] Naughty Later: i do also Sita
[16:32] Sita Piek: I think most do
[16:32] Cursa Charisma: Welcome, Mikie!
[16:32] Mikie Rhiadra: hi
[16:32] Baroun Tardis: I've met people who were doing RL work in SL , with one accoutn, and who had a "personal" alt for playing.... because having a gruop list like "US Dept Homeland Security...... BDSM-O-Rama....... US Coast Guard..... FreeSexLand" would raise eyebrows with their boss
[16:32] Sita Piek: Can we do a straw poll? How many alts do we all have?
[16:32] Baroun Tardis: I have no alt
[16:32] Sita Piek: exactly Baroun
[16:32] Maximus Kenin: 0.
[16:32] Six Static: active or inactive?
[16:32] Cursa Charisma: Let me pass around my notes to those arriving now
[16:32] Tabitha Diesel: I have a total of 5 characters
[16:32] Alaraan Giordano: an avi ages by time splent here and experiencei think - b/c someone wo signed up here 2 years ago may only have visited once - or only 2 or 3 times
[16:32] Sita Piek: I hav e 4
[16:33] Mikie Rhiadra: 5, but rartely ever use
[16:33] Vel Alchemi: I have two prior efforts at AVs. Do they count as alts if I don't use them?
[16:33] Sita Piek: (or I AM 4)
[16:33] Baroun Tardis: Baroun looks almost exactly like RL me, and I'm planning on getting an SL alt when I get a RL alt
[16:33] Mikie Rhiadra accepted your inventory offer.
[16:33] CoolLuke Sands accepted your inventory offer.
[16:33] Sita Piek: Well I meant that we use, even if only occasionally
[16:33] Joan Vhargon: I have "several"
[16:33] Quentin Foulsbane accepted your inventory offer.
[16:33] Six Static: one... semi retired
[16:33] Maximus Kenin: I am not here to make L$
[16:33] Reiko Soyinka: One.
[16:33] Baroun Tardis accepted your inventory offer.
[16:34] Maximus Kenin: so when I feel like wearing whatever, I do
[16:34] Maximus Kenin: nobody really seems to care
[16:34] Joan Vhargon: I actually only use mine to test product permissions and do my laundry.
[16:34] Naughty Later: i have 3 that ive deleted, and 3 active, and another 3 in hibernation
[16:34] Reiko Soyinka: /blink
[16:34] Baroun Tardis: Laundry?
[16:34] Reiko Soyinka: That's a lot of alts, Naughty.
[16:34] Joan Vhargon: Someone has to.
[16:35] Cursa Charisma: Do they all have such excellent names, Naughty?
[16:35] Maximus Kenin: I was thinking of putting one ice so its born on date would be properly aged
[16:35] Naughty Later: it is, but 3 active is less than many people ive come across who roleplay
[16:35] Naughty Later: i do try to get good names, yes :P
[16:35] Reiko Soyinka: I have one alt that I use to just be able to sit back and relax.
[16:35] Cursa Charisma nods
[16:35] Vel Alchemi: Has anybody here created an alt strictly to claim a particular name?
[16:36] Naughty Later: thats why naughty was created
[16:36] Cursa Charisma: I have tried, Vel
[16:36] Cursa Charisma: But failed
[16:36] Cursa Charisma: hehe
[16:36] Naughty Later: for the name
[16:36] Vel Alchemi: LOL
[16:36] Joan Vhargon: I have an Alt that has my real name in it for my Universitie's Sim island.
[16:36] Maximus Kenin: I will have to do that...pick a good name combination
[16:36] Joan Vhargon: University's
[16:36] Maximus Kenin: and put it on ice
[16:36] Alaraan Giordano: i tried, too, Vel but it wasn't available-one i woul dhave loved to visit SL as
[16:37] Tabitha Diesel: I have some alts that are fillers for rps
[16:38] Reiko Soyinka: Um, you know...we are a biased group.
[16:38] Vel Alchemi: I've also seen more than one AV with a 'For Sale' sign attached.
[16:38] Baroun Tardis: "Self Selected Sample"
[16:38] Reiko Soyinka: Yes, Baroun
[16:38] Sita Piek wonders if she could sell alts on EBay
[16:39] Vel Alchemi: LOL
[16:39] CoolLuke Sands: I have found that if your main alt is a high profile business owner/Sim Admin/Group leader that if you tend to constantly get IMs and have to deal with issues that it is best to have an alt to login with to actually get work done if you need to.
[16:39] Six Static: or to have fun
[16:39] Cursa Charisma: I'd like to get at the issue Maximus raised. People form relationships based on the things they can see and judge. If they find out later than the avatar they're dealing with is an alt that only gets a portion of the operator's attention, is that something that operator ought to do something about?
[16:39] Sita Piek: yes CoolLuke, that's my experience too
[16:40] You decline Franks Elite Jazz Club, Franks Place 7 (136, 185, 33) from A group member named Adriana Beningbrough.
[16:40] Alaraan Giordano: yes, oheard people were creating avis with accounts, getting them great skins & shapes, etc - fixing them up nicely and selling them - i think there must be a market for those who want to save time
[16:40] Reiko Soyinka: Good point, Cool.
[16:40] Cursa Charisma: Luke's point is excellent, and related to item 2) in the outline
[16:40] Cursa Charisma grins
[16:40] Naughty Later: i think if youre going to alt, you should be honest with people you develop relationships with, yes .... none of my alts are hidden from people who know me
[16:40] Cursa Charisma: Naughty, the problem is *when* do you tell them?
[16:41] Maximus Kenin: yes...and know in your mind if you're going to be around
[16:41] Maximus Kenin: especially if you form meaningful relationships with that alt
[16:41] Sita Piek: My VERY best friends know my alts names. At least some of them lol
[16:41] Cursa Charisma grins
[16:41] Maximus Kenin: LOL
[16:41] Naughty Later: well i think it depends on what types of relationships you develop, to decide when you tell them
[16:41] Sita Piek: exactly
[16:42] Tabitha Diesel: I have one alt that only a select few people know specifically to escape where people can't find me
[16:42] Cursa Charisma nods
[16:42] Alaraan Giordano: i think it's up to the operator to decide who they tell, if anyone, that thay are or have alts
[16:42] Maximus Kenin: These were all friendships....but time was invested
[16:42] Sita Piek: I do wonder if friendship means something different in SL
[16:42] Maximus Kenin: Like I said... perhaps it was a spate of bad luck
[16:42] Cursa Charisma: Shall we look at an example? Please profile Lex Umaga. (disclaimer: Lex is not my alt - he's a guy I've known in a couple of rp groups)
[16:43] Cursa Charisma: Lex announces very clearly in his profile what the nature of his av is. Should more of us do this?
[16:43] Cursa Charisma: I mean, when we have avatars for role playing
[16:44] Maximus Kenin: I can look at his profile
[16:44] Maximus Kenin: er can't
[16:44] Baroun Tardis shrugs
[16:44] Alaraan Giordano: don;t know why they would tell unless there was a compelling reason - i think i assume that i may always be dealing with an alt - it does not mean evil or deception by default - some people just want privacy for many legit reasons as mentioned in the talk
[16:44] Sita Piek: I like the RP limmits many people put on
[16:44] Six Static: reads like someone who has a long and overly needy friends list
[16:45] Vel Alchemi: I think it quite likely that a lot of people start into SL not knowing how open they want to be. They have to experience SL for a while before they know.
[16:45] Sita Piek: yes vel
[16:45] Cursa Charisma: Agreed, Six, hehe, but my question is, to prevent unhappiness like Maximus experienced, should we provide overt, clear information to people before we get into relations with them?
[16:45] Cursa Charisma: Yes, Vel
[16:45] Sita Piek: would it make a difference?
[16:45] Cursa Charisma nods
[16:45] Alaraan Giordano: I think Sita's question about friendship meaning different things is a good one:
[16:46] Cursa Charisma listens
[16:46] Alaraan Giordano: some people state in their profile they do not take it seriously here - others have said they do not
[16:46] Maximus Kenin: I guess if you're truly starting over, you wouldn't be morally obligated to mention your previous character
[16:47] Six Static: to those who don't alt at all it can be considered dishonest, deceitful... do you really want to paint yourself like that?
[16:47] Maximus Kenin: but if you're unsure and your hanging with people a lot
[16:47] Joan Vhargon: Why. What is the social contract in a virtual community?
[16:47] Alaraan Giordano: evryine has a right to privacy - even if i want to know about a friend they have no obligation to tell me anything
[16:47] Cursa Charisma: So Six, what happens when they find out later?
[16:47] Cursa Charisma nods
[16:47] Alaraan Giordano: in RL or SL
[16:47] Cursa Charisma is a big believer in privacy
[16:47] Maximus Kenin: true dat
[16:47] Maximus Kenin: Same here
[16:48] Six Static: they shouldn't. if you interact with someone on two different alts intentionally, without telling them, it IS dishonest
[16:48] Joan Vhargon: So they broke the social contact?
[16:48] Joan Vhargon: contract
[16:48] Maximus Kenin: Introrespect, I should put them all in my picks
[16:48] Baroun Tardis nods and very quietly excuses himself
[16:49] Alaraan Giordano: now if i have a frienshipand someone lies outright, that is a different matter entirely (If i find out, of course).then i get to decide if i want to stay - no matter where in the Inworld or Outworld it occurs
[16:49] Cursa Charisma nods
[16:49] Maximus Kenin: A little double-life exposure would be fair play since they didn't mind f*ing with me
[16:50] Cursa Charisma grins
[16:50] Alaraan Giordano: sometime sit can be hard, i have not always made the evolved choice in attitude - but I've always believed in the freedom of others - and besides the best realtionships inspire compassion so it all works out
[16:52] Maximus Kenin: A fair code of conduct should be: if you fair to disclose and the hurt another, they should be able to out you in their picks
[16:52] Reiko Soyinka: Ahhhh, what words did you leave out, please.
[16:53] Alaraan Giordano: @ Six Static: in my world I agree woth you about the 2 alt situation: if someone knew me under 2 alts and did not tell me I would consider that a lie
[16:53] Reiko Soyinka: I wouldn't...
[16:54] Cursa Charisma: That brings to mind another question: alt paranoia. When we suspect deceptive use of alts, where does suspicion end? After all, we cannot *know* people's offline identities...
[16:54] Sita Piek: well that goes for ALL of SL, not jsut alts
[16:54] Maximus Kenin: I have been asked to be a party to a lie
[16:54] Maximus Kenin: one of the alts I mean when I first joined
[16:54] Alaraan Giordano: (add: to say not necessarily in RP game playing but just socially otherwise)
[16:54] Sita Piek: I was very paranoid about SL for a long time, after getting hurt by a liar
[16:54] Six Static suspects there are only forty people in SL and the rest are their alts
[16:54] Maximus Kenin: introduced me as herself to her real friends
[16:54] Sita Piek: Six, I ahve wondered that too
[16:54] Alaraan Giordano: lol!, Six
[16:54] Joan Vhargon: Cursa's comment about paranoia is important. Isn't that what we are talking about?
[16:55] Vel Alchemi: lol
[16:55] Maximus Kenin: trouble was, about half knew of her alt and half didn't
[16:55] Reiko Soyinka: Yes, we are talking about paranoia.
[16:55] aketa Kalamunda accepted your inventory offer.
[16:55] Maximus Kenin: that was awkward so I defriended her
[16:56] Tabitha Diesel: well using alts to seperate things like our main character from our bad guy/filler alts or from our business alts I don't think is a problem ...but using an alts to grief/stalk/hurt others is wrong
[16:56] Vel Alchemi: Don't blame you.
[16:56] Six Static: agreed
[16:56] Cursa Charisma nods
[16:56] Maximus Kenin: agrred
[16:56] Joan Vhargon: agreed
[16:56] Reiko Soyinka: I think we can all agree to that, Tabitha.
[16:56] Tabitha Diesel: and I agree on the paranoia
[16:56] Reiko Soyinka: But, there is a gray area.
[16:56] Alaraan Giordano: There may be a fin line re: paranoia being caution in here. I befriended someone, logged in as private the next time so I could take a class (two days after I met him). he must have had a 'spy'program because he sent em a note, freaking out and then deleted me
[16:57] Cursa Charisma: So, in practice, how do we deal with the very real problem of deceptive or malicious use of alts?
[16:57] Alaraan Giordano: (fine line)
[16:57] Vel Alchemi: Sorry. RL calls. Great discussion.
[16:57] Tabitha Diesel: especially with having experience with an individual who does use alts to skulk around and we suspect intentionally lagging the sim
[16:57] Cursa Charisma: Peace, Vel
[16:57] Maximus Kenin: Here is a fun question: what do say to a friend you know has an alt, but doesn't mention it to you?
[16:57] Mikie Rhiadra: you can get that from jsut about any person
[16:57] Maximus Kenin: For example, they're offline for three days, but they accomplish some big build
[16:57] Joan Vhargon: Readjust your expectations. You can't do anything about alts.
[16:57] Cursa Charisma nods
[16:57] Maximus Kenin: should one be offended?
[16:58] Reiko Soyinka: No.
[16:58] Sita Piek: My ppartner used to do exactly that
[16:58] Alaraan Giordano: Maximus, I have from others learned of alts and seen them
[16:58] Sita Piek: go into "builder's trance" and just not be available for days on end
[16:58] Sita Piek: now I do it when I build lol
[16:58] Maximus Kenin: I like the idea
[16:58] Tabitha Diesel: no when they log on a secret alt to build or attend a class or such they just need some persoanl space and we should respect that
[16:59] Maximus Kenin: it is just strange when the person pertends you were part of it
[16:59] Sita Piek: yes Tabitha!
[16:59] Tabitha Diesel: *personal
[16:59] Reiko Soyinka: Agreed, Tabitha.
[16:59] Maximus Kenin: because you were there for the start and end
[16:59] Alaraan Giordano: bIdo not think they mean it as a huge secret bu thave not told me (this is when they do not say anything)
[16:59] Alaraan Giordano: meanign they do not interact with me as that alt
[16:59] Alaraan Giordano: (meaning)
[16:59] Joan Vhargon: You choose whether you are offended or not. You should develop that ability to choose to be offended. It can be a healthier way to live your life. You can't controll another person's behavior only your own.
[17:00] Joan Vhargon: And then you can always mute.
[17:00] Cursa Charisma nods
[17:00] Maximus Kenin: I think I will create a builder alt to allow me to pretend to be offline
[17:00] Reiko Soyinka grins
[17:00] Alaraan Giordano: being offended can be a waste of time, most especially if i do notknow someone or do not know them well
[17:00] Cursa Charisma: Yes, perhaps we should have another talk on the topic, "Busy Mode or Builder Alt - Which Will Offend Your Friends Less?"
[17:01] Joan Vhargon: Mute and unfriend are very powerful tools.
[17:01] Cursa Charisma nods
[17:01] CoolLuke Sands: one note about mute though.
[17:01] Maximus Kenin: Sounds good, Cursa
[17:01] Maximus Kenin: :)
[17:01] CoolLuke Sands: If someone that you mute pays you anything...$1 L for example they automatically cant get unmutted
[17:01] Sita Piek: really?
[17:02] Cursa Charisma: Wow, that's a nasty bug
[17:02] CoolLuke Sands: Not sure if its corrected but its been like that for a long long time
[17:02] Joan Vhargon: I didn't know that.
[17:02] Joan Vhargon: re-mute!
[17:03] Joan Vhargon: did everyone just mute me or something?
[17:03] Cursa Charisma laughs
[17:03] Sita Piek: hehe
[17:03] Maximus Kenin: LOL
[17:03] Joan Vhargon: do I have to pay you all L$1
[17:04] Alaraan Giordano: wow, I did not know about that mute bug either - but that button does come in handy, esp.i large crowds with lits of chat in text & voice
[17:04] Alaraan Giordano: (lots of chat)
[17:04] Reiko Soyinka: Clubs...
[17:04] Cursa Charisma: Now is the point in the discussion where I wheedle for contributions to the Nexus...
[17:05] Reiko Soyinka: mute 3 people...and the "noise" is reduced by 95%
[17:05] Alaraan Giordano: also the privat ecall feature comes in handy - even works in non voice activated areas
[17:05] Sita Piek: Cursa is this a group?
[17:05] Maximus Kenin: One thing about privacy: Your IP is pretty easy to sniff
[17:05] Cursa Charisma: We need your help to continue providing events like this one...
[17:05] Joan Vhargon: IP?
[17:05] Cursa Charisma: And no, I'm not asking for cash
[17:05] Sita Piek: I found it completely by accident....
[17:05] Mikie Rhiadra: worse if you ahve an ro meter that you knw tracks ips
[17:05] Cursa Charisma: Yes, IP address
[17:05] Maximus Kenin: your internet address
[17:05] Alaraan Giordano: i knowbut ISP's are public in mkost cases unless someone blocks theirs
[17:05] Joan Vhargon: What do you need Cursa?
[17:06] Alaraan Giordano: most
[17:06] Maximus Kenin: the LL's have allowed a boat load of services to associate your IP with your Av
[17:06] Cursa Charisma: We need suggestions for new topics and events, and offers to give talks and lead events
[17:06] Maximus Kenin: so unless you SL from Starbucks, don't assume you have any privacy
[17:06] Cursa Charisma: Agreed, Maximus
[17:07] Cursa Charisma: And if you SL from Starbucks, your password may become public property...
[17:07] Joan Vhargon: I'm presenting next week I think.
[17:07] Cursa Charisma: Great, Joan!
[17:07] Alaraan Giordano: there is noprivacy on that tip,exactly - unless you take extra measures and not always even then
[17:07] Joan Vhargon: Topic:
[17:07] Maximus Kenin: The easiest way to collect IPs is to invite people to listen to a streeam
[17:07] Joan Vhargon: Community: Flawed conduit for fulfillment in real and virtual communities.
[17:07] Maximus Kenin: er strream
[17:07] Cursa Charisma: Excellent!
[17:07] Reiko Soyinka: Wow!
[17:07] Reiko Soyinka: Great topic.
[17:07] Joan Vhargon: There will be homework.
[17:07] Cursa Charisma smiles broadly
[17:08] Tabitha Diesel accepted your inventory offer.
[17:08] Maximus Kenin: and in the US, some cable companies allow IP addresses to be pin pointed to within a two-three block radius
[17:08] CoolLuke Sands: nods
[17:08] Maximus Kenin: just so you know
[17:08] Maximus Kenin: :)
[17:09] Cursa Charisma nods
[17:09] Alaraan Giordano: what is an RO meter, Mikie?
[17:09] Sita Piek: OK I need to go, folks. Thanksm, fascinating discussion.
[17:09] Mikie Rhiadra: rop meter, a typo
[17:09] Mikie Rhiadra: rp even
[17:09] Cursa Charisma: Thank you for coming, Sita
[17:10] Alaraan Giordano: i will look up ROP meeter
[17:10] Alaraan Giordano: learn new thing in here all the time it seems
[17:10] Maximus Kenin: bye Sita
[17:10] Alaraan Giordano: (o:
[17:10] Mikie Rhiadra: with our former affiliation the creator of hte meter bragged iopenly that he had access to our ip addresses and could oprove the identiy of each player behind
[17:10] Cursa Charisma nods
[17:11] Alaraan Giordano: yikes!!
[17:11] Reiko Soyinka: Why bother?
[17:11] Alaraan Giordano: our real life names?
[17:11] Maximus Kenin: it is a bit more physical: you get the IP to give you the area
[17:11] Mikie Rhiadra: control
[17:11] Maximus Kenin: you then have to jump on the cable and use a network sniffer
[17:11] Maximus Kenin: to associate IP and MAC addresses
[17:11] CoolLuke Sands: FYI - We just tested the MUTE / Pay thing and it apparently is fixed now so muting appears to not be going away with paying money to the person
[17:11] Alaraan Giordano: well, i share web service with others so not sure if my name woudl ever show?
[17:11] Maximus Kenin: you have to want to know who is who pretty badly
[17:11] Cursa Charisma: Thanks, Luke
[17:11] Maximus Kenin: but it can be done
[17:12] Cursa Charisma: Yes, Maximus, but there are some very energetically malicious kiddies out there
[17:12] Mikie Rhiadra: this person has been suspect of being a lot of trouble, and has had many alts come onto the sims and cause problems
[17:13] Reiko Soyinka: Yeah, well, the malicious seem to be able to get away with anything....
[17:13] Maximus Kenin: "ranging" is an attack where you perform a set of attacks using a range of IP addresses designed to cause those IPs to be banned; it is a clever denial of service attack
[17:13] Six Static: interesting discussion. be seeing you.
[17:13] Maximus Kenin: Bye all
[17:14] Maximus Kenin: Sorry...
[17:14] Cursa Charisma: Thank you for coming, Maximus
[17:14] Maximus Kenin: Didn't mean to drift off topic
[17:14] Alaraan Giordano: this has been an interesting discussion - thank you
[17:14] Total Fuckwad Theory: Alaraan Giordano, Penny Arcade http://www.penny-arcade.com/2004/3/26/ is the source for this important piece of wisdom. The article references a learned thesis, which can be read online https://www.msu.edu/user/trescami/thesis.htm
[17:14] Furry Shogun: Alaraan Giordano, Feudal Nippon is enriching itself with RP
[17:15] Cursa Charisma: Thank you all, and there will be a transcript of this discussion available here, probably dispensed by the Deckard quote giver behind Alaraan
[17:15] Alaraan Giordano paid you L$20.
[17:15] Cursa Charisma: Alaraan, thank you, I'll pass that to the parcel owner toward tier
[17:15] CoolLuke Sands: Night all
[17:15] Cursa Charisma: Thanks for coming, Luke
[17:15] CoolLuke Sands: Thank you for having us Cursa
[17:16] Cursa Charisma: Please let me know if there are topics or speakers you'd like to see here
[17:16] Naughty Later: thank you for the class and discussion, i wish you all a pleasant evening
[17:16] Cursa Charisma: Peace, Naughty
[17:16] Cursa Charisma: Later
[17:16] Cursa Charisma winks
[17:18] Cursa Charisma: I hope I'm not the only one who's been enjoying the stream
[17:18] Cursa Charisma grins
[17:18] Joan Vhargon: Thank you Cursa for all of these talks.
[17:18] Mikie Rhiadra: i havent had it on
[17:18] CoolLuke Sands: Cya later Cursa
[17:18] Cursa Charisma: OK, peace
[17:19] Joan Vhargon: I thought I turned it on but I have a lot of problems with audio.
[17:19] Cursa Charisma: And Merry Christmas, hehe
[17:19] Joan Vhargon: Happy hannukah.
[17:19] Joan Vhargon: By all
[17:19] CoolLuke Sands: Happy Festivus
[17:19] Cursa Charisma: That's right, I saw the pole yesterday
[17:19] Cursa Charisma: With Tee on it
[17:19] Cursa Charisma: hehe
[17:20] Reiko Soyinka: Thank you for hosting these, Cursa. Very interesting.
[17:20] Tabitha Diesel: take care all
[17:20] Cursa Charisma: Thank you for coming, Reiko, I hope to see you soon
[17:20] Cursa Charisma smiles broadly
[17:20] Cursa Charisma: Thanks, Tabitha
[17:20] Mikie Rhiadra: ty cursa, these talks are great
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(transcript ends)